Can we have a sensible discussion about Cologne.

One of the important dimensions of tarrahush gamea is that it is to some extent a form of punishment; punishment for women who dare to be out in public, instead of at home where they belong.

The anthropological literature on rape identifies socially-sanctioned punishment gang rape in a number of societies.

This is another reason why it is different, in addition to the fact that it is public.

Matilda, it was seen as a sex game (tarrush gamea) in Cologne; a phenomena seen in Tahria Square during Arab Spring.

this is harrowing to watch but will give you an idea of why this is different.

Not worse, just different. Different to dv in a European context.

And because it is a cultural phenomena, the ethnicity and cultural beliefs of the perpetrator is important.

We are very aware indeed of the sensitivities of discussing this, but it is an issue that, as the numbers of single young men entering Europe without identification continues to rise, will become more important to debate.

It's not the same. Another way of attacking women yes. But not the same.

Mathilda what would your reaction have been if the Cologne perpetrators had been white German men? Would you have been arguing that other forms of sexual assault are just as bad, and that digital public gang rape of hundreds of women needs to be seen in context?

I'm not sure there is an age-old patriarchal division between public and private space. There's a lot that doesn't fit neatly into that box. There are/have been cultures where it's acceptable to hit "your" women, full stop, public or private. There are also cultures where hitting a woman is frowned on, but it's believed that it's very difficult to stop it completely in private situations, from a purely practical point of view. The latter is supported by a lot of experience, and is due to a host of complex factors.

I'm arguing people should be similarly angry and resolved to do something about the sexual violence that European men perpetrate

People are just as angry and as I said a pp things have been slowly changing. But it's time to up the anty, Because we now have extra to deal with. People who are willing to sexually assault women and children in public areas such as swimming pools, train stations, streets, Greg's.......

The playing field is/has changed and we really need to start somewhere with how to deal with it.

They are not usually literal bystanders though.

The police do not usually literally stand in people's houses watching them get sexually assaulted.

The police were literal bystanders in Cologne.

There is necessarily an 'of course' because it is fundamental to democracy that the state do not monitor our private lives to the same extent that they monitor public gatherings.

No one is saying that it is lesser if a woman is assaulted in private. I'm not sure how you could come to that conclusion?

If a woman or a neighbour called the police to report an assault that is happening in her home or somewhere else private and they refused to take action, what message would that convey to the victim? You don't matter, you are a liar, we are protecting your abuser, you are powerless to stop this, are things that come to mind.

MatildaBeetham but the implications are of a teacher standing by and allowing it, are greater.

The child who threw punch now knows it's definitely OK to do it again, because they were seen and there were no repercussions.

That child and maybe other children will do it again and again and again to other children.

I don't think that is true about the child at all. There is a particular form of humiliation where authority figures are complicit in allowing abuse to happen. There is a feeling of utter helplessness and victimisation when those in authority will not protect you. It is not like just being punched.

Of course we have greater rights to protection and all other forms of state intervention by the state in public. The whole concept of 'private' in these contexts refers to the limits of state scrutiny and interference in our domestic lives.

Yes and let's not forget the Cologne police were offered back up from a neighbouring force when things started heating up and they REFUSED the offer of help then stood by and told the women they couldn't help them. That is why the petition focused on police understanding, recognition and response.

AND then the state and the media colluded to hush the whole things up. Agree completely, and that's a very, very clear way of putting it, Almond.

Matilda, I don't know if you read the Cologne threads, but you may not have come across the explanation about Tarrahush Gamea, and its commonness in North Africa:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_sexual_assault_in_Egypt

"The state is supposed to protect the public from mass public disorder where women and girls are being sexually assaulted, not have the police just stand there and let it happen.

That is the difference between public and secret acts. Not immediately intervening to prevent the former is a breakdown of the state's ability to protect the public. "

This is it. It was shocking enough that men gathered for the purpose of mass sexual assault and robbery of women but that nothing could be or was done to stop them is even worse.

The state is supposed to protect the public from mass public disorder where women and girls are being sexually assaulted, not have the police just stand there and let it happen.

That is the difference between public and secret acts. Not immediately intervening to prevent the former is a breakdown of the state's ability to protect the public.

So in order of severity from the most severe...

Assaulted by the state
Assaulted while the state's agents stand and watch.
Assaulted in private and the state does not investigate.
Assaulted in private and the state does investigate and prosecute.

Think of the difference between your child being punched at school and the teacher not knowing, and your child bring punched at school while a teacher stood and watched and then told you they could not intervene.

I guess for me, these men in Cologne were openly and proudly doing what countless men do secretly (though it's more of an open secret isn't it) all the time.

Psychologists reckon that around 4% of men are what's called "anti-social" in their behavior and personalities, of which a quarter are seriously hardcore (psychopaths). Those in this group who engage in sexual assault are likely to be serial offenders. Apart from locking them up, it's going to be very difficult to ever prevent their criminal behaviour, sadly.

But that's different from the 96% of normal men, whose involvement in sexual harassment and assault will be strongly culturally mediated. If their immediate culture/social group seriously frowns on it, they won't do it. If it accepts it, or says it's not that bad, then some of them will. I was looking at a really shocking study of Chinese rape statistics recently, where 22% of men said they had committed rape, for example.

That's why I think the difference between public behaviour and secret behaviour is HUGELY significant, and that we really shouldn't go down the route of thinking that really it's all the same.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3482214/Five-migrants-arrested-suspected-sex-attack-girl-12-using-waterslide-pools-Cologne.html

Yes, the irony didn't go unnoticed shabby.

Some statistics re gang rape in the UK. Impossible to know the real picture of course because only the Metropolitan police record the crime of gang rape and it isn't recognised as a separate crime category in the UK. And of course only a tiny percentage of victims ever report.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/gang-rape-is-it-a-race-issue-1711381.html

I said on the other thread that we need to tackle underreporting, misogyny, recording of crimes and campaign for harsher sentences as current punishments are not deterring anyone.

I just wondered how many people know that its International Women's day today, not a good day to be telling women not to go out at night as there is a good chance of being raped or attacked.

I think the thing about Cologne was the uniqueness of the attacks, never before in Europe have we seen so many men attacking women in what appeared to be an organised plan in an open and busy place.

I just don't understand why no one is taking these attacks more seriously, by not doing so they are being given the message that's its not really that wrong but just high jinks. In the meantime women are supposed to change their behaviour, their dress and the hours they can go out.

Its just a step backwards for women.

Sorry if it doesn't make sense, I'm on the school run.

Yes I think you are making sense.

It is very difficult to articulate, because there are two things that need looking at both separately and together at the same time IYKWIM

The sexual assaults and dv against women is something that we have being trying to move forward for a long time. I think we have moved forward, but not as far as we need to. This is an ongoing fight.

But now we have to add into the mix an even greater risk coming from an influx of young men who have been brought up to believe it is their right to behave the way they do.

What I'm saying is the odds of been sexual assaulted in public have just risen an awful lot for those women in Europe.

So it all needs looking at and talking about, how can we keep the safety we already fought for, and how to ensure we improve it.

We need to make everything happen faster now, because of the mass shift in people coming into Europe. Other wise we could end up going backwards.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3481882/Women-warned-not-night-Swedish-town-multiple-sex-attacks-foreigners.html

OK - health warning: it's the Daily Mail.

But this is what we earlier posters were warning against in the earlier threads about Cologne before the threads went tits up.

We were saying how easily this could lead to women's rights being curtailed (thus the petition).

Sure enough….

Much easier to stamp on women's freedom than actually deal with the objectionable shits who think any woman is fair game.