Can we have a sensible discussion about Cologne.

But I think that the 'White men' argument is often used as a fallback when people don't know how to articulate their concerns about culturally-motivated behaviour in a way that doesn't sound generalising or racist

Sorry I totally missed this ^

And is what I was trying to say. it's been said much better then my post.

What makes me, laugh in despair

Is everybody talks about what influences there are that help towards the rape culture in 'European men' and how to change it. Things like pornography, the way women are treated in films etc

But many are incapable of looking a the influences of rape culture in well errr a different culture.

The 'white men do terrible things too' argument is frustrating Lass, I agree.

Less an 'argument' and more a core component necessary to be able to mock NAMALT.

I agree grimble!

Sorry, pressed post too soon...

But I think that the 'White men' argument is often used as a fallback when people don't know how to articulate their concerns about culturally-motivated behaviour in a way that doesn't sound generalising or racist.

This is very relevant to me as I live in one of the countries that has seen huge inward migration since last summer. The presence of large groups of bored young men directly affects my everyday life. Most are respectful and pleasant, some are not. I feel significantly less safe than six months ago.

I think that the left largely recognises the cultural challenges of mass migration, but doesn't know how to articulate its concern.

Yes. They are essentially caught in a trap of their own making. Because they have been so keen in the past to cry racism at discussions about immigration/cultural norms - even the most sensible - they can't now discuss immigration and culture without accusing themselves of the same sin. Leaves them with their heads up their own arse and nowhere to go.

The 'white men do terrible things too' argument is frustrating Lass, I agree.

I agree with Indigo. There is a desperate need to blame white men for everything. If they aren't directly responsible then whatever bad thing happened is due to their cultural oppression. If that doesn't work then divert the conversation into "but white men do terrible things too"

It happened on a previous thread. For example, 2 right wing, anti-goverment nutters in an armed stand off with the FBI were dragged into the conversation, despite being completely irrelevant to what happened in Cologne.

Interesting article. I think that the quote is partly true Indigo. But the bigger problem, I think, is that we have been taught that making generalisations and assumptions about particular groups or cultures is racist (which of course it very often is).

This is helpful when trying to prevent discrimination. It is not helpful when tackling cultural norms that we do not support. I think that the left largely recognises the cultural challenges of mass migration, but doesn't know how to articulate its concern.

So, less 'white men are the problem!', more, 'there's a problem here that I recognise but can't describe in a non-racist way, so I won't say anything'.

I thought this quote from here was interesting. Sorry if it's already been referenced.

Then there is a desperate desire among the modern left to abide by the creed of ‘white male privilege’. What happened in Cologne doesn’t fit into this ideology – being neither white nor privileged – hence the contorted attempt to rationalise the incidents. It must be media invention. Or something to do with the legacy of colonialism. The perpetrators are men foremost, and race and religion are of secondary importance, relevant only to the awful white xenophobes on Twitter luxuriating in all their privilege. This is what happens when people mentally imprison themselves in ideology.

I was disappointed and angry at the Guardian's minimising. Indie was slow to report but got there in the end.

Cologne made me realise that my feminism comes before my desire for sensitivity on cultural issues. Whenever there's a conflict between the two I go with feminism, as (in my opinion) promoting feminism is ultimately beneficial to men and women of all cultures.

Better than the left , and women on the left ,crying racist.

The right are not realy defending women, they are defending 'our' women.
Better than nothing but not as good as it could be.

Well, I am a boring centrist where politics are concerned, but if Cologne has done nothing else it has corrected the irritating delusion many suffer from that the left holds some sort of moral high ground.

I now feel a strange fondness for the DM - I didnt expect to feel that!

I was brought up as far left as you can imagine.

I have a strange fondness, since January of this year, for Nigel Farage and David Davies who were the only MEPs to stand up and talk about what happened in Cologne and ask difficult questions.

Louise Honeyball, MEP (Lab) in an EU forum an women's safety, said nobody was to discuss Cologne because that would be 'wrong and racist.'

A female labour MEP, disgraced by two males, Conservative and UKIP.

Shame on her. I hope Justin Welby has a quiet word.

Me too Anna...it is like feeling fond of the creepy boss you have had to avoid for 14 years! It's weird!! But good on 'em!

I'm glad they do, I feel really let down by The Independent (my former favourite) and The Guardian. The Guardian has been particularly disgraceful in its (non) coverage of attacks on women across the EU and the erosion of women's freedoms. It has minimised at best and denied at worst. I now feel a strange fondness for the DM - I didnt expect to feel that!

The only one to be raising awareness!! Stupid voddie!

Why on earth is the Daily Mail the only paper to report this stuff?? I am shocked that the most infamously misogynist paper going is he ONLY be to braising awareness!!

The DM seems to be the only paper fighting our corner

Indeed. And they reported recently on how the Swedish media are silencing this debate too.

Other European media sources aren't afraid to report the phenomena.

I have long since lost any hope that the British media, particularly the Guardian, whose reporting on this issue was shameful, will have the balls to talk about such incidents.

However, Welby has today absolved them of the terror of being thought racist. Which seems to be far worse than journalistic principles of actual truth-telling.

So we will see.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3485473/The-small-Swedish-town-terrorized-string-sex-attacks-eight-assaults-past-three-weeks-leaves-women-terrified-walk-dark.html

I posted this link on another thread. The DM seems to be the only paper fighting our corner.

very good post zaurak, but sadly we are being silenced in so many ways by so many people.

"I do not want to live in a country where people tip toe around other cultures and religions in order not to cause offense."

I would love to live in a country like that. Doesn't mean people are OK to break the law.

Some excellent posts on this thread.

Thankfully, people seem to be coming to the realisation that you can be concerned about the effects of Islamofascism on women, homosexuals and other religions without being racist.

About time.