Can we have a sensible discussion about Cologne.

This thread is in Feminism Chat, not Apologist Chat.

Of course cultures that put women on anything other than an equal basis, or actively promote equality are backwards. Backwards, mediaeval and misogynistic. It's wrong. End of.

"If we are judging cultures solely on treatment of women, I would say there isn't a forward culture"

Really

So you would compare Saudi with the UK, or France etc?

We all have farther forward to go but I cant equate somewhere like Saudi with the UK at all.

Do you agree with cutting hands off, and execution then?

""i think the "backwards" bit sits uneasily to me. No denying there is misogyny."

Again why does backward sit un easily? I would suggest a culture that does not give women the freedoms that we have in the west, in THAT regard is backward.

Mide, the British level of misoygny is not progressive, of course it's not. But there are degrees of it. Some cultures are more misogynistic than others.

Your conversation still sounds racist by the way and far from 'sensible.

Please feel completely free to find one that suits your sensitivities and prejudices.

So our misogyny is progressive misogyny then? If we are judging cultures solely on treatment of women, I would say there isn't a forward culture

AgainstTheGlock

"I'm happy to call FGM, making women cover up, deny them education, grown-ups marrying children and mass rape against women and children "backwards"."

That is sooooooooooo racist of you, Glock. Report to Re-education Camp 43 in the morning.

I'm happy to call FGM, making women cover up, deny them education, grown-ups marrying children and mass rape against women and children "backwards".

Mide7

"i think the "backwards" bit sits uneasily to me. No denying there is misogyny."

So misogyny should be called "progressive", then? Or perhaps we could have a discussion based in reality instead?

emilybohemia

"Your conversation still sounds racist by the way and far from 'sensible.'"

Crying racism is no longer the magic bullet that the far left can use to silence any debate and win any argument - people have seen through that gaslighting bullshit.

i think the "backwards" bit sits uneasily to me. No denying there is misogyny.

Shins, I have read quite a bit about some of the cultures involved here. And the plight of the women therein.

But, Emily has said "the assumption that the young men are from 'backwards misogynistic cultures' seems quite a racist generalisation"

So, I think its up to Emily to give us some links of cultures/countries involved that proves they are NOT misogynistic, don't you?

Emily, the countries from which most migrants come from are backward, religious, misogynistic and patriarchal. If I had the time, I could reel off stats about the position of women in North African and Middle Eastern countries, or share with you my own experiences of travelling there as a young woman or the many experiences of women who live in those countries. How on earth is that racist? Many Turks are indistinguishable physically from western Europeans for example.

I suppose MENA region feminists like Mona Eltawy or Maryam Namazie or Nawal el Saadawi are racist? Women who have written and spoken and campaigned tirelessly against the oppressive sexism of their countries and who have faced death threats and exile as a result? You aren't fit to clean their shoes.

Shins, first of all, the assumption that the young men are from 'backwards misogynistic cultures' seems quite a racist generalisation

Can you provide some evidence that the countries where the men come from are not misogynistic please.

Positions in the UN gender equality index...

Germany 6
Sweden 12
Syria 118
Afghanistan 169

Whoops, that should say Lalalili sorry

Emily lalali said that she feels less safe because she has experienced groups of men hanging around on the streets, some of whom are not respectful or pleasant. Her feelings are directly related to her experience and aren't based on the ethnicity or religion of the men but on their behaviour.

What you are saying is that no one should ever feel threatened by men who are acting in a threatening manner if they happen to not be white because that is racist? Their 'victim' status trumps the right of women to be safe in your eyes.

Oh, emily, do go and read that Pew study

Here are some quotes to save you having to follow the link:
Across the Middle East and North Africa, fewer than half of Muslims say sons and daughters should receive the same inheritance shares. (Daughters tend to get less).
Muslims in most countries surveyed say that a wife should always obey her husband. In 20 of the 23 countries where the question was asked, at least half of Muslims believe a wife must obey her spouse.... Similarly, in all countries surveyed in the Middle East and North Africa, about three-quarters or more say the same.

Those attitudes belittle women and are misogynistic. Obviously not all people in those countries hold those attitudes, but that is the cultural milieu from which young MENA men come. To say that these cultures are misogynistic is not racist: it appears - on the basis of a survey of 35,000 people - to be, sadly, a statement of fact. I happen to think misogyny is backwards, myself. Do excuse me if I am mistaken.

'Is Lalalili racist to feel less safe in her home now there are large groups of young men from backward misogynistic cultures hanging round the streets, emily? Perhaps you could tell the women of Ostersund how racist they are now they're being told that they should stay indoors to avoid being raped by the men their government invited to their country'.

Shins, first of all, the assumption that the young men are from 'backwards misogynistic cultures' seems quite a racist generalisation.

Attacks on women by strangers in public are rare. Not feeling safe in one's home because of what may happen outside it seems quite irrational. There is no evidence that men from particular cultures or ethnicities are more likely to publicly attack women, so beliefs on the contrary, that are not based in fact do appear to be based in fear and racism.

The OP seems to be taking a backseat.

I'm interested to see the impact this issue has in the polls in Germany today. I expect the far right to do well.

As this thread rumbles on I find myself still none the wiser as to how to explain these rapes without discussing gender, culture or immigration - which I thought was the original purpose of the thread.

mycrisp I don't think anyone is saying these behaviours are ok in their own countries ...
I think most of these young men are less likely to behave in a similar fashion in their own countries (I posted a huge post up thread about gender imbalance, failure and reluctance to acknowledge and take action because of their backgrounds and fear of being labelled racist, lack of consequences, lack of ties). Coupled with attitudes to Western women - because of our freedoms.
The cultural aspects -attitudes to women in some of their countries of origins -although I don't agree with them - their lesser freedoms will protect women from these events too.
I see it as we are now fighting to keep our freedoms as Western women - we can't tackle the rights of women in other cultures if we have none left in our own.

Indeed it is not acceptable MCB.

In any situation of conflict it is the most vulnerable who are most at risk. That's why refugee aid usually prioritises young children, the elderly and women.

But Sweden and Germany have decided to set up 'survival of the fittest' refugee policies that led to huge numbers of young men being prioritised for entry to their countries.

While Syrian women and girls sit in camps being raped and sold into sexual slavery.

Thinking about this while I am posting but...

What's make me really uncomfortable with this debate, specifically in the context of immigration control, is the implication that these behaviours are 'okay' in their countries of origin. It's not like stopping people entering the country will stop them abusing women, it just makes them some other woman's problem.

Is Lalalili racist to feel less safe in her home now there are large groups of young men from backward misogynistic cultures hanging round the streets, emily? Perhaps you could tell the women of Ostersund how racist they are now they're being told that they should stay indoors to avoid being raped by the men their government invited to their country.

www.thelocal.se/20160308/backlash-begins-after-swedish-women-told-not-to-go-out-alone