Corbyn - "I'm in favour of decriminalising the sex industry"

If men are criminalised for buying, it may have a deterrent effect, but it would depend on how strictly it were inforced. FGM is illegal in the UK isn't it, but doesn't stop it from happening.

Really, fundamentally I think selling sex is damaging and buying sex us damaging to people. To our emotions, and our path through life.

If I look back to my 17yo self, troubled and desperately in need of cash, I walked into the massage parlour asking for work, I got it, made more cash than I thought I would, and really I've done sex work ever since taking a year or so off now and then. If that option were not available, I'm not sure what I'd have done.

Coming out with £300 after a 10hour day as a 17 year old was a huge "achievement" in my eyes. I was so proud of myself.

If I could only find a job in a cafe or whatever because the parlours had all closed down, maybe I would have done that instead. Claimed benefits, whatever. Who knows, maybe that would have been a good thing?

If we introduced the Nordic model, demand drops, then maybe the people who can't find work here will move abroad elsewhere, and my client base would drop a bit, but it's not going to stop men paying for sex. I'm certain NM pushes it all further underground, increases stigma/fear and causes more pressure to be "discreet", secretive and silent, in order to protect your clients.

Decriminalization makes some sense, and still doesn't make is all "Perfectly OK". A civil offense is committed instead, for those related activities now listed as criminal.

I'm gobsmacked that because monkeys do something, it is viewed as inescapable that we would do the same. People in this country are usually pretty compliant, they even wont smoke a cigarette in a pub anymore because it's believed harmful. It's very difficult to stop all forms of paid for sex I agree, and it would require some more effort to police it.

What I am particularly against though is any sort of normalisation or commercialisation of prostitution. Do you think it ought to be treated differently to other professions, or should it be the same ? "You're a pretty girl Jen, you'd make a fortune as an escort, my mate's uncle could put in a word for you if like". Career advice c. 2030.

Bertrand - Street workers account for about 10% - 15% of UK sex workers. (Happy to toddle off and find a supporting link for that if necessary.) There are probably very few of us who have experience of the street scene.

0phelia - Thanks for posting. I've only been working in the sex industry for about 7 years and hope I have the staying power to still be doing this in 20 years!
I've only ever worked as an indie doing outcalls and, more recently, incalls. Never worked in a parlour or for an agency so your experiences are probably quite different to mine e.g. the most clients I've seen in one day is 4, and I usually take bookings of 2 hours+ in length.

I think location and advertising style makes a huge difference to client base too...
My clients tend to be tradesmen rather than professionals. I spend most of my days gabbing over cups of tea with builders and electricians (though I do get the odd GP, I.T. worker or car salesman too.)
Client age range has varied between 20 - 80, and I'm 30. It's definitely not my experience that most clients are "successful professionals who are simply eager for a young available woman to satisfy them".

Given you already work alongside other women and not on your own, how do you feel the Nordic model would impact your business and safety? (If at all.)

Palmerviolet - I did say in my first post that I'm aware my experiences do not reflect that of all sex workers. And I would never want to silence women who have been abused in this industry. There should be provisions in place to help women who want to exit the sex industry to do so, whilst simultaneously providing help with whatever personal issue it was that led them to be in that situation in the first place.
No one should be forced into sex work by addiction, mental health problems, or a lack of other options through economic reasons. It is a mentally and physically demanding job that definitely requires having a certain mindset around sex and your own bodily autonomy.

Out of interest, how did you come to meet women who have worked in the sex industry? You appear to care a great deal about their well-being and I'm interested to hear their stories too.

I'd also recommend googling SAAFE and having a read through their articles and forum. There's a lot of support there for current escorts, and you may find the forum an enlightening and informative read.

Sausage - Thank you for your post

Slugs - Plenty of 'decent' men pay for sex. And sex is an essential need to many women as well as men (it certainly is for me in my relationships anyway!)
A man who pays for sex can be very aware he is not entitled to sex - he's having to pay for it and even then we are under no obligation to see any particular client. If the client felt he was entitled to it he would be pushing for it for free.
And please do not patronise me by telling me what will or will not increase the risks in my job.

Unfortunately it's only feminists who see "Traditional" equate "misogynist" most men will view their own misogynist behaviour as traditional.

I don't agree with this, we need to deal with it.

Thank you, SausageEggBacon.
A well thought-out Non judgemental post.

"Most" prostitutes are not working on the street, Bertrand. If that is your perception I think you have no idea how most prostitutes live their lives.

The women and work handbook by Sonia Carreon suggests between 10 and 20% of sex workers are street based which means 80% plus work at home etc. The current laws put those at risk. Now you have to remember not every feminist has the same position and I found it interesting reading a piece of Feminist Fightback (here) that shows that feminism doesn't agree in itself on what is right. But given that with all the research available Amnesty has been positioning for full decriminalisation you would assume those that understand the industry are in the best place to decide the way forward.

Everyone must have read the piece I have put up a couple of times that monkeys(here again), once educated in the use of coins, traded coins for sex. Prostitution is not going to go away, there is no magic wand that will ever change that and anyone who believes otherwise well can I have some of what your smoking please.

So given the fact that it is not going to go away what is the best way of protecting those women who choose to work this way and providing at least some chance punters will come forward if they think someone is trafficked? No choice is ever made in a vacuum so lets not use the logical fallacy about no choice in a society where money is a necessity. And independent sex workers being able to operate together and therefore able to offer some level of protection and support to each other.

5 Years ago I would have thrown the prostitutes under the metaphorical bus but I took time to read a lot and I am now thinking the same way Amnesty does. The article from that poor young girl does highlight something. She has no protection and criminalising the punter will not make her life better.

There are bad people out there, but the change in laws for the nordic model will not make them go away. I now truly believe the best option is protection through decrim.

"Traditional views" i.e. That women are the servants of men. Feminists call this misogynistic, to generations past it's basically "Traditional".

That's a euphemism and a half!

Seeing women as inferior to men is misogyny. Let's not beat around the bush here.

No, that doesn't look strange. What looks strange is perpetuating the Belle du Jour image of lots of money and sexual gratification from grateful and respectful men and claiming to have experienced "the whole range" of sex "work" when you have no experience of how most prostitutes live and earn their money.

Sorry, on another site I'm on it's the norm to briefly summarize your experiences so people get to know each other. Probably looks a bit strange on this site!

So. Not "the whole range" then.

BertrandRussell, no I've never done street prostitution.

"Traditional views" i.e. That women are the servants of men.
Feminists call this misogynistic, to generations past it's basically "Traditional".

Corbyn makes a good point. Decriminasing won't make it "A-OK" but would provide more protection. It basically moves it into the category of "civil offense" rather than "criminal offense" which saves a lot of time and effort and allows some protection of women in the sex industry.

In my years of experience, I've seen how the tighter regulation of Massage parlours made it harder for women to work there, so they/we simply moved to flats. I've seen the growth of online porn and how it has affected men's perception towards sexual activity, I've seen a huge huge increase in the numbers of Eastern Europeans coming in as sex providers and how that has made services cheaper...

I would like to see more protection of women in the sex industry, but most of all I would to see a shift in society as a whole. Changes to the law simply move the situation around. I'm not sure there is any legalisation/criminalization legislation that will reduce the demand in men paying for sex, having most of the money, women "choosing" to sell sexual services because the situation runs so deep into societies psyche.

Decriminalization will not make an iota of difference, apart from perhaps making the UK a more attractive destination for traffickers but only v slightly, as there is already a lot of trafficking anyway.

I think my original point was that the mainstream (popular culture/education/people in positions of power) needs to be more feminist, somehow. (now I'm rambling sorry).

"I am a sex worker. The whole range,"

Street prosititution?

0phelia, in what way do they hold traditional views?

I am a sex worker. The whole range, worked in massage parlours (full personal service) Did escorting with a few agencies, moved on to hostess at sex parties (by far the best environment, but having sex with 15-20 men in 2 hour time frame with several other women doing the same) Also a few porn films. 20ish years experience in total

My opinion is that it's more complex than decriminalization / criminalization or Nordic model.

More work is needed in society as a whole. Women should not be viewed as sexual services to be bought. The unfortunate truth is, we are.

Many of my clients treat me well, lavish me with compliments and affection, money and sexual gratification. But I also know most of them are married.

Many of my clients are polite, successful professionals who are simply eager for a young available woman to satisfy them. Many hold traditional views of life. I do not meet blatant misogynistic or "bad" men. Not that they behave that way toward me.

But there is an underlying problem in our society that treats women as sexual servants to men, and feminism is the only outlet where certain problems like these are discussed. While feminism remains a subculture, with it's mainstream opponent; patriarchy, these problems are not going to be resolved.

Yeah, I got that vibe too IfNot. The immediate call for research papers. Sadly, I'm not an academic, so don't have access to them, guess I'll just tell the women I know that we have to collectively STFU then.

Most prostituted women are not 'happy hookers'. Iirc, about 15% of them are.

Most street prostitutes in the UK start when they are still (abused) children.

I'm really not academically inclined enough to unpick the issue with any great success!

That's odd, because use of "unpick" in this context is very academic language.

85% of prostitutes enter prostitution when they're under 18.

and

IIRC, they are global stats.

That percentage may be true on a global scale, but we're discussing sex work in the UK and UK law specifically.
Muddying the debate with irrelevant and misrepresentative statistics doesn't help. Prostitution in Brazil, for example, is a completely different beast to prostitution in the UK.

Brazen, I'm not Palmer, but I do agree with her. I base my theory that Rosalie's experience is more representative on some reading that I've done that suggests that as many as 85% of prostitutes enter prostitution when they're under 18. And they tend to come from vulnerable backgrounds - in care, having run away etc. So no, we don't protect children and vulnerable youth the way that we ought to, not at all. I can dig out some research if it's of interest. IIRC, they are global stats.

There have been quite a few people here I wanted to respond to so apologies for the length of this post!

PalmerViolet, do you have any statistical evidence to back up your assertion that Rosalie's experience is more common than the experiences I (and many other indoor sex workers like me) have?

In Rosalie's case, the problem isn't sex work, the problem is child abuse. We already have laws in place for that which should have protected her, and perhaps we should look into enforcing those laws with a little more effort than we do currently rather than picking on the 'easier' targets like two consenting adults exchanging sexual favours for cash.

Drug problems, assault, rape, child abuse, abuse of the disabled, all have laws already in place which should be protecting the vulnerable in our society.
In Rosalie's blog she says "By you supporting decriminalisation you support the men who have raped me since I was 14 years old."

Supporting decriminalisation within the sex industry does not equate to supporting rape or child abuse.

Sillage - You say "The Nordic model has been the most successful legal avenue to reducing men's sense of entitlement to sex the world has seen so far."

Have you looked up Sweden's rape statistics in the last couple of decades? I'd say they still have a pretty big problem with male sexual entitlement.
Stop listening to Harriet Harman, she has a habit of telling porkies and really doesn't care about the safety of sex workers at all.

Greentomatojam - I'm glad you asked about health and safety. My health is extremely important to me, and my livelihood depends on it, so of course I use condoms and get myself tested regularly (which is more than the porn industry is willing to do but that's another gripe for another thread...)
I also have a partner and I wouldn't risk his sexual health either by putting my own at risk.
Do I believe this is a common attitude in the sex industry?
I honestly have no idea what other consenting adults chose to do with their own bodies and sexual health. My concern is my own health.
But I suspect most other sex workers would be careful too - our livelihood depends on us being in good health.

summerfloweragain - Your post was thought provoking. Yes, there are a lot of people out there who are failed by other social attitudes and provisions.
Why do men seek emotional comfort through paid-for sex and women don't? I don't know. But, in my experience, I find many men to have their self-worth tied up in their sexuality to a huge degree. The same way many women have their self-worth tied up in appearing sexually available to men.
Though I could just be talking bollocks there I'm really not academically inclined enough to unpick the issue with any great success!

Absolutely.

With the greatest of respect, it's not women like Brazen's experience, the one that gets touted as the norm that we need to be listening to here. It's women like Rosalie's, which is far more representative of what's actually going on.