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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Corbyn - "I'm in favour of decriminalising the sex industry"

311 replies

IndominusRex · 04/03/2016 13:14

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/04/jeremy-corbyn-decriminalise-sex-industry-prostitution?CMP=share_btn_tw

Not a huge shock but still troubling to see him say it.

OP posts:
BarefootAcrossHotLegoPieces · 08/03/2016 15:58

Eh?

You think "selling" is inaccurate - I can see that, because you retain your body intact afterwards, unlike, say, selling a kidney.

So I proposed "renting" as an alternative term.

You can disagree, but why is it unhelpful?

sillage · 08/03/2016 15:53

"Implying we sell our bodies is dehumanising, insulting and, as I said before, creates an incorrect assumption that prostitutes are selling our bodily autonomy when we are not."

How have you managed to prostitute yourself for so long in the sex industry without ever seeing the pornography your chosen industry has flooded the internet with for several decades now?

I jest - I know you've seen what the johns who use women like you think of women like you, and I understand 100% why you chose to block that horrific, billion-dollar and very public reality out of your mind, choosing instead to debate feminist women online.

You trust we won't call you any of those disgusting names, which is the only thing that makes it possible for you to get your hackles up about how offensive "selling your body" is when spoken by women on a political forum board.

Brazenhussy0 · 08/03/2016 15:29

Barefoot - Very useful contribution there Hmm

Brazenhussy0 · 08/03/2016 15:24

Bungo - Words and their meanings in society matter. Being a feminist, you should be well aware of that.
But regardless, you're distracting from the main point here, which is the safety of sex workers, and which legal model will best protect the women (and men) working in the industry.

I don't view selling sex as being 'selling my body as a commodity', so I can't respond fully to your second paragraph.
But I will point out yet again, that you need to educate yourself on the difference between legalisation and decriminalisation.
The difference between the two is fundamental in answering your question:
"supporting a possible situation where a woman at the bottom of the social heap could have her benefits stopped - i.e. have her ability to pay for her living needs in any other way removed - for refusing to work within the sex industry."

That would not happen under decriminalisation. Again, I direct you to the two links I've just posted (which you clearly didn't bother reading.)

BarefootAcrossHotLegoPieces · 08/03/2016 15:22

You are renting your body, then.

How's that?

BungoWomble · 08/03/2016 14:57

It is not a fairly obvious distinction, except as a word-play.

I do find it interesting that you yourself say that selling your body is dehumanising, but that your particular different wording of the same activity is not.

In supporting decriminalisation you are supporting normalisation of the idea that women's bodies are perfectly valid commodities for sale, therefore supporting the growth in the normalisation of lap dancing and other exotic clubs, therefore ultimately supporting a possible situation where a woman at the bottom of the social heap could have her benefits stopped - i.e. have her ability to pay for her living needs in any other way removed - for refusing to work within the sex industry. Which part of that chain of reasoning do you not agree with and why?

Brazenhussy0 · 08/03/2016 14:52

I'm going to post a little quote from the ECP with another link, because I really think this is worth highlighting:

"CLAIM #6: Decriminalisation does not work.

FACT #6: This is not true. New Zealand decriminalised in 2003 with verifiable improvements in sex workers’ health and safety. The law removed prostitution from the criminal law, allowed people to work together collectively, and distinguished between violence and consenting sex. It reinforced offences against compelling anyone into prostitution, stating a specific right for sex workers to refuse any client. A comprehensive five-year government review found: no increase in prostitution, no increase in trafficking; drug users treated as patients not criminals; sex workers were more able to report violence and leave prostitution if they choose.[x] Legalisation (like in Germany, Nevada and the Netherlands) is state-run prostitution which sets up a two-tier system where the most vulnerable workers remain illegal. It is opposed by most sex workers."

The rest of the points made in this link are well worth a read too, and are backed up with citations:
prostitutescollective.net/2015/02/04/press-release-sex-workers-protest-misinformation-biased-press-briefing/

Brazenhussy0 · 08/03/2016 14:36

BungoWomble - Obviously, sex work is extremely intimate and it takes a certain psychological make-up and attitude to sex to be able to do the job without having any negative feelings surrounding it.
Given the nature of the job, and it's incomparability with other forms of work, I doubt very much that supporting decriminalisation would pave the way to 'state-sanctioned rape'. To suggest it would is alarmist and, quite frankly, ridiculous.
I'd also suggest looking up the difference between decriminalisation and legalisation. The latter of which is not what I, or most other sex workers, support.
prostitutescollective.net/2010/09/28/decriminalisation-of-prostitution-v-legalisation-2/

Regarding the difference between the phrases 'sale of sexual services' vs. 'selling our bodies', if you can't see the important difference there, then there's not really much I can say to help you with that. It's a fairly obvious distinction.
Implying we sell our bodies is dehumanising, insulting and, as I said before, creates an incorrect assumption that prostitutes are selling our bodily autonomy when we are not.
We sell a service that involves sexual contact, and we offer whichever sexual acts we are comfortable with and with whoever we like.

Florafox - Sorry, but you're wrong in your last post. Germany enacted the legalisation of sex work. That is not what sex workers, Amnesty or Corbyn are supporting.
I think you have decriminalisation and legalisation a bit confused...
The only place where prostitution is currently decriminalised is New Zealand.

I strongly suggest everyone gives this link a read:
prostitutescollective.net/2010/09/28/decriminalisation-of-prostitution-v-legalisation-2/

FloraFox · 08/03/2016 13:50

0phelia in fact Corbyn along with many organisations, including AI, are calling for decriminalisation, not legalisation. They are calling for no rules or regulations just as in Germany which would make prostitution the only unregulated commercial activity in the country.

BungoWomble · 08/03/2016 13:49

If you like substitute 'if she refuses a job as a lap dancer' rather than as a prostitute. I could see that happening sooner.

BungoWomble · 08/03/2016 13:43

On top of that all-too-familiar hypocrisy, I would still like anyone who supports decriminalisation to answer Lurcio's earlier criticism:

"If you have ever uttered such nonsense, ask yourself whether you then think such jobs should be advertised in the local job centre, whether a woman should be threatened with having her benefits withdrawn if she refused to take a job as a prostitute, ask yourself in what way her experiences (if she then "chose" prostitution over starvation) would be anything other than state-sanctioned rape?"

I suppose it is great that some individuals are happy selling their bodies. That is what you are doing, whether you like the term or not brazenhussy - or if you want to be absolutely precise you are selling the temporary use of your vagina as a wanksock. (I wonder if your dislike of the term indicates a deep seated dislike of what you're doing actually, but ignore my uneducated psychology if you like). In doing so and in calling for decriminalisation you are paving the way for state, or at least culturally-sanctioned abuse and rape of many others who have no other options in life. The sex industry is on the rise, it's becoming more normal for city folk to entertain clients with sex parlours and lap dancing clubs or so I hear. How do you square with that?

FloraFox · 08/03/2016 13:36

I don't want women in prostitution to pay tax. The idea that one in three times (or so) a woman in prostitution is used for sex is for the benefit of the tax man is just grim. It makes the state into a pimp.

weeonion · 08/03/2016 12:30

s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/welcome-to-paradise/index.html

"All the sex workers I spoke to, in Britain and in Germany, told me it’s “not for everyone.” Kristina Marlen, the Berlin dominatrix, sees her work in terms of “celebrating the sexual part of the person” (though “sometimes people come in and I am like ‘Ew’. But I can work with them.”) She’s bisexual and currently in an open relationship with a woman. She thinks of prostitution as its own kind of “sexual orientation”.

But, she says, “there are some people working in the sex industry who shouldn’t be there.” Sex workers can find themselves in “very precarious positions and not all the women can articulate themselves as I can.” Even she has had “moments in which it wasn’t clear to me how to communicate boundaries.” You need to be thick-skinned and good at negotiating with strong boundaries and high self-esteem. There isn’t much of what’s been called “willing supply”.

Back in 2002, the liberal left imagined a sex industry in which responsible managers would push out exploitative pimps. Empowered prostitutes would work in safety and the money from this hitherto black market would go into pension pots and the German treasury. Well, they got their taxes.

Paradise’s Jürgen Rudloff appeared in a documentary, “Sex - Made in Germany”, which aired on the German public broadcaster ARD last summer. In one scene he’s sitting in his spacious kitchen dressed in an open-necked white shirt and linen jacket, surrounded by his four shiny-haired, privately-educated children.

Would he be happy for either of his two daughters to work at Paradise, the interviewer asks. Rudloff turns puce. “Unthinkable, unthinkable,” he says. “The question alone is brutal. I don’t mean to offend the prostitutes but I try to raise my children so that they have professional opportunities. Most prostitutes don’t have those options. That’s why they’re doing that job." He pauses and looks away.

“Unimaginable”, he repeats. “I don’t even want to think about it.”

0phelia · 08/03/2016 09:52

sillage, quite.
Laws regarding prostitution (and also rape) are created by men who funnily enough prefer it when things are organised for male advantage.

Any changes to legislation make minimal difference in reality.

Re what sillage pointed out, my interpretation is that the number of men paying for sex has risen in direct correlation with access to free internet porn.

The law in the UK is tough on various activities relating to prostitution but realistically enforces those laws very loosely in exactly the same way as they apply law against rape. ie only in exceptional circumstances.

"If it can go up, it can go down"
Maybe, but we are facing bigger challenges than criminalising people arbitrarily.

Lass decriminalisation isn't the same as legalisation. It'll never become a free-for-all.

My concern is more protection for women selling sexual services, and more awareness provided to these women who are coerced or trafficked that it is illegal currently in this country for a man to pay for a women who is coerced.
These are the women who need protecting, so the law as it currently stands needs to be actually applied. Not just lip-service.

sillage · 07/03/2016 19:07

"In the UK various practices such as soliciting, running a brothel are illegal. This hadn't impacted supply/demand at all."

Changes in law ans social attitude have dramatically impacted the number of British men who seek to use prostitutes.

From the Guardian in 2005, Number of men paying for sex has doubled"

"Two surveys in 1990 and 2000 each questioned about 5,000 adults on their sexual lifestyles. Asked if they had paid for sex in the last five years, 2% of men interviewed in 1990 said they had. But by 2000 the proportion of men admitting to having had sex with a prostitute in the last five years had more than doubled to 4.3%...By 2000 the figure had risen to nearly one in 10."

If men's prostitution use can go up, then it can also go down.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 07/03/2016 17:16

Lass is NAMALT really the best argument you can come up with?
Obviously NAMALT. But the sex industry does flow in one direction doesn't it

I've set out in this and other threads plenty of reasons why I oppose legalisation of the " sex industry "

I'm not particularly persuaded by your argument that its cause is a lack of jobs for women and the defeatist attitude of oh well , we can't stop it. The drink driving analogy gives the lie to that. I would like punters to be treated with as much contempt as most people have for drunk drivers.

So far as the "sex industry " flowing only 1 way, er , no not exactly, given these threads always get at least 1 enthusiastic "happy hooker"

0phelia · 07/03/2016 14:10

Brazenhussy, I believe you! It's a shame people are dissenting towards you on here.

0phelia · 07/03/2016 14:08

Lass is NAMALT really the best argument you can come up with?
Obviously NAMALT. But the sex industry does flow in one direction doesn't it.

Barefoot
Yes, proponents of the Nordic model want to reduce the occurrences of paying for sex. I'm simply dubious that it actually works.
In the UK various practices such as soliciting, running a brothel are illegal. This hadn't impacted supply/demand at all.
By criminalizing the men, all that happens is that sex workers are forced into more secrecy, more silence and denial.
Paying for sex is damaging, I am not denying this. Change needs to happen at a societal level rather than legislative.
Your comparison to drink driving is a moot, because drink driving kills, no victim of a drunk driver offers themself to be run over.

Brazenhussy0 · 07/03/2016 14:05

IfNot - Dismissing me as a fantasist with a snide little one-liner like that doesn't make my feelings, opinions and experiences any less true or less valid.
But if it makes you feel better to outright disbelieve me and belittle me just because I'm happy to be selling sexual services, then go ahead and do that.
I'm not here to gain approval from you, I'm sharing my viewpoint as someone who actually works as a sex worker.
And I really do wish more sex workers would come out and talk about their experiences publicly (the good and the bad.)

BarefootAcrossHotLegoPieces · 07/03/2016 13:50

"FGM is illegal in the UK isn't it, but doesn't stop it from happening"

This is nonsense. If FGM was legal here (it's illegal in Nigeria now, IIRC, as well as hundreds of other countries), do you think the numbers of sufferers would stay the same or would massively increase?

Murder also happens every day, shall we legalise that? No, because we need to punish murderers.

BarefootAcrossHotLegoPieces · 07/03/2016 13:46

"I'm not sure there is any legalisation/criminalization legislation that will reduce the demand in men paying for sex, "

I think a heck of a lot of men who use prostitutes would be deterred by being criminialised, actually.

Just as drink driving (which was always illegal) used to happen quite casually but after various information campaigns combined with police checks, has very much declined since the 1980s. And as itll says, just as workplaces and workers have complied with smoking laws.

If the numbers of men using prostitutes declines, the number of prostitutes declines (a result for me as I am concerned about their welfare). Are the ones remaining more dangerous? Perhaps, but if there are many fewer of them to police and the police can charge them, I am confident that this group would also reduce.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 07/03/2016 13:38

More work is needed in society as a whole. Women should not be viewed as sexual services to be bought. The unfortunate truth is, we are

The vast majority of women in the UK do not , never have and never will, work as prostitutes.

Nor, despite how much it might suit those with a vested interest in the "sex industry " ,do I think the vast majority of men in the UK actually think women are there to be bought for sexual services.

IfNotNowThenWhenever · 07/03/2016 13:17

I can't shake the feeling that brazen is a teacher in Nuneaton with a rich fantasy life..Wink

IfNotNowThenWhenever · 07/03/2016 13:14

I would like to think we are slightly more evolved than monkeys. Crazy, I know.

sausageeggbacon111 · 07/03/2016 12:26

I find it interesting that some many people rattle on about the Nordic model yet google escorts/massage in Sweden and there is no shortage of women working. So how well does the Nordic model work in the real world? Not very judging by the ads in Sweden I could find in 10 seconds. In a world of the internet and smart phones the policing will on impact those most at risk who cannot vet clients. The closing of Ugly Mugs in Ireland was horrifying but unsurprising given the state and church moralisation.

As to the monkeys, well of course it doesn't show anything? I would suggest you look at the implications of what money does to any society. But those wishing to take the moral high ground and judge people based in your moral imperative rather than empirical evidence well that is your choice. However not all feminist agree with that point of view and I hope any sex workers reading this realise we are not all the same. Feminism is split on many issues and this is just an example.