Corbyn - "I'm in favour of decriminalising the sex industry"

"No one said prostitutes have been arrested under NM."

Too much has been written here for you to be this disingenuous now. Brazen says right above that she fears getting arrested for brothel-keeping much more than she fears rape and possible murder from a john, and that's why she works alone.

You claim "20ish years experience in total". You claim people like you can self-regulate the johns who use prostitutes and the pimps who own prostitutes.

However, in your self-reported 20 years in prostitution you have self-reported 0 acts of coming to the aid of a prostitute being assaulted. 20 years.

"They were discouraged from going to the police by their manager, by their punter, by their workmates,"

I am sure they were. I'm sure grisly tales of evil police officers who rape them and lock them up for years were brought out by predatory men, also shaming tales of how social workers and feminists judge and despise prostitutes.

Men lie a lot to get the control over women they want.

I find your use of "working girls" infantilizing, harm minimizing, and pimp-y.

Ophelia, brazen - I can see how, if you start from the position that the demand for and active seeking out of paid for consent is immutable and cannot be affected by legal or social pressures, you focus on making the existing system safer for women working as prostitutes.

But surely the lower the number of men seeking to pay for consent, the lower the number of women potentially being put in harm's way.

And, generally, when people are told their behaviour now breaks the law, that behaviour reduces. Employers now mostly pay the minimum wage, for example.

Of course, a few won't care. But many will.

Hence wishing to criminalise punters to achieve the above goals.

No one said prostitutes have been arrested under NM. The brothel keeping example was in reference to Partial Criminalisation in the UK. I agree this needs to change.

I have never "rescued a prostitute and paid for it in blood" as Sillage claimes to have. I have never worked as an Indy like Brazen. I have always worked in groups, because it is safer, and you share important information with your workmates, but I do it knowing the establishment may close down which happened a few times. So you find somewhere else.

I currently work with three women who have moved from Sweden (they aren't Swedish) because the NM was not working for them. They were discouraged from going to the police by their manager, by their punter, by their workmates, it seems to heighten patriarchy in action and female opression in practice, for many working girls.

For society as a whole though, NM looks to be a good answer on paper, because crimes are reported less, although still happening, and those looking for sex work or a sex worker go abroad to do it so occurrences appear to drop.

Many feminists willfully overlook or deny how some WG's are harmed through NM or Partial Crim. They prefer that to thinking Decriminalisation makes prostitution "Fine and Dandy" (which it doesn't). I understand the promblematic implications to wider society of DeCrim too.

As I am probably going to retire soonish, and after years of it all, while DeCrim may make it better and safer for WGs, prostitution itself is a harm to women. NM is possily better for wider society.

Tell me, how many times a day do you find yourself worrying about being attacked at work?

Never. That's not really the point other than to flag up how unsuitable a job prostitution is.

Oh and of course there are plenty of jobs where such a threat does exist exist (e.g all emergency services, army, social workers, animal cruelty officers)

However we can't exist as a civilised society without them and/or they exist to prevent harm/make society better.

No prostituted woman have been arrested under the Nordic model for brothel keeping. Here's where I ask you for any proof (news story, government record, etc) that a prostituted women has been arrested in Sweden, Norway, or Iceland for brothel keeping because there were two prostitutes living out of one residence. I have asked for this information before and no one has been able to show this has ever happened once, much less many times.

"Don't you think it's possible that we, sex workers, might know what's best for ourselves as a result of our experiences?"

Of course I do, which is why I relayed what the women who are in prostitution really do when faced with violent men:

"...the women who said they would seek help to protect against violence said that they called or threatened to call the police..."

None of them said they called out for another prostitute's assistance. I'll wager they don't do that because it's a completely useless thing to do when faced with the men who become so routinely violent against prostitutes because they are prostitutes.

Brazen, that's exactly why I would like a system that reduced and punished punters!

Punters put you at risk, punters make you afraid. I'm not surprised, I would be too.

So wouldn't it be better if being a punter was both socially and legally unacceptable and women currently working as prostitutes supported (if support needed) to get other work?

sillage - I said I work alone in this job (mostly because I'm scared of being charged with brothel keeping if I have a friend in the next room). I didn't say I've never experienced violent men. I have, and am very aware of the hurt that can be caused by them.
That experience also makes me feel I'd rather not be completely alone with a potentially violent man. Another woman on the premises is preferable to there being no one.

Tell me, how many times a day do you find yourself worrying about being attacked at work?
Whenever I meet a new client, I have the niggle in the back of my mind that asks 'Is this going to be the one? Is this the guy that will end up stabbing me and robbing me?'
That's after 7 years of mostly good experiences, and a genuine love of my job. How do you think other sex workers, with less fortunate experiences, might feel?

It's easy for you to sit there and tell us what would be best for us when you're not the one doing our job.
Don't you think it's possible that we, sex workers, might know what's best for ourselves as a result of our experiences?

A sex worker in my area was murdered recently (might be nearly outing myself here but I'm past caring). She was an indoor sex worker, working alone, and only staying in my area for a few days.
She was strangled on her first night here with a rope tied round her neck.

The Nordic model would not have rescued her from that.

So you can fuck off with your
"What if standing up for abused women were something you really did instead of a hypothetical thing you can only imagine that you might do?"

and your proud proclamations about coming to the aid of a woman under attack.

We live this risk every day. And we do know what is best for our safety.

But sillage If it were only done in a German style super brothel presumably those lovely, ethical employers will provide some muscly hard men (who are really softies at heart) to protect them? And then it will all be fine? Just a job like any other.

You must remember the aim is not to make prostitution as ethically and morally unacceptable as say slavery, drink-driving or illegal dogfights - quite the opposite apparently.

So Brazenhussy, like Ophelia, has also never actually come to the aid of a woman who was being attacked by a man.

I have, and you better believe I paid for it in blood.

What if standing up for abused women were something you really did instead of a hypothetical thing you can only imagine that you might do?

There's a lot of evidence that punter violence decreases with the Nordic model and only speculation that it doesn't. Under decriminalization such as New Zealand's, capitalism wins and protecting the massive profits provided by male customer is a higher priority than reducing violence.

www.feministcurrent.com/2014/11/24/from-norway-to-new-zealand-pro-prostitution-research-is-its-own-worst-enemy/

Research carried out by pro-prostitution advocates in Norway says your assumption about prostitutes protecting johns under the Nordic model is incorrect. It also shows MASSIVE reductions in the worst male violence in just a few short years after the Nordic model was implemented.

www.feministcurrent.com/2013/01/22/new-research-shows-violence-decreases-under-nordic-model-why-the-radio-silence/

“Most of the women who said they would seek help to protect against violence said that they called or threatened to call the police when they found themselves in a dangerous or threatening situation. This would often scare the customers, or others, who were acting threatening/violent away.”

“A fairly large amount of the women said that there was little they could do to protect themselves against violence. The reason they gave for this was usually that they already did what they could, and that prostitution was so risky that it was impossible to protect yourself against violence. Some of the women who said there was little they could do, also said the only thing they might be able to do was quit prostitution.”

I have come to the aid of women under attack by men on two occasions.

Most times, an aggressor will desist and scram when they find it's more trouble than they'd thought. But, you're right - if someone is armed and very dangerous it is possible that even the two of us together wouldn't be able to deal with him. In any violent crime the police aren't right there to deal with it.

However, you didn't notice I said that I would do what she wanted to do. Under some models she may not feel safe going to the police.

The Nordic model says women don't have do the job of the police in protecting themselves and/or other women from violent criminals

sillage - Eh?

I agree with what 0phelia has already said (though I'm very anti-Nordic model, so our opinions do differ there.)

With decriminalisation, we'd be able to work in pairs or groups legally and that in itself would act as a deterrent to a lot of violent men who target the women currently working in flats alone. And it gives sex workers the confidence to go to the police when there's an issue.

The Nordic model has the opposite effect, making sex workers less likely to go to the police for help as we'd then be in a position of trying to protect our clients/income whilst keeping a low profile ourselves.

Did you watch the ted talk? Or read any of the numerous links posted?

Either way, in your hypothetical situation, obviously two women working together is going to be safer than one woman working alone...
Personally, if a man with a weapon was in my flat I'd rather have someone else (anyone else) here with me.

These hypothetical questions are a bit random!
Decriminalization also means, as with Nordic Model, that the police are there to sort out violent and threatening behaviour, that women shouldn't have to deal on their own with violence.

In our current legal climate, for a hypothetical scenario, two women are working together in a flat, a violent punter comes in, the women feel forced not call the police in fear they will raise alert that the premises will then be seen as a brothel and one or both of the women will end up with a criminal record. Both NM and Decriminalisation solve this particular problem.

"After running the guy off,"

So you've never once come to the aid of any woman being attacked by a man, prostituted woman or not.

How do you fantasize you would run him off? It's likely he brought a weapon with him, and even more likely he's bigger and stronger than you.

The Nordic model says women don't have do the job of the police in protecting themselves and/or other women from violent criminals, because police are trained and equipped to deal with violent criminals and you aren't.

Sillage I sometimes share a flat with a friend in the evening. I wouldn't hesitate to run in there and intervene. After running the guy off, it would be up to my friend what she wanted to do.

I would expect the police in my city to be helpful. They have demonstrated that they're good on that sort of thing. Although the flat technically a brothel I don't think they would give any trouble. They dealt with a guy going around robbing massage parlours very effectively a year or so ago. Those parlours are still open.

Re: the Nordic model... Sweden now has a significant sex imbalance among people in their late teens, a phenomenon which is known to be linked with greatly increased demand for paid sex. I wonder what will happen over the next decade? It's interestingand worryingto speculate on what will come about as demographics collide with the Nordic model.

I say: decriminalize (NOT legalize) and then double-up on all efforts being made to help women who want to get out of the trade, to do so (saner drugs policies would help, as the majority of sex workers are also substance abusers).

For women who are absolutely clear that they are genuinely happy working in the sex trade (and i don't think they are more than a minority, but they do exist), respect their agency, and do what is necessary to help them stay as safe as possible.

"Partial criminalisation that we have in the UK makes it unsafe for workers because we can't work together or share information freely."

If the prostituted woman in the room next to you started screaming because of what a john started doing to her, what do you think you could realistically do to help her?

I've seen the TED talk Brazen.

It's all true. Any intervention by legislation of any kind makes it all more dangerous for those working.

Nordic Model increases secrecy, silence and anonymity, and forces it underground.

Legalisation makes everyone jump through hoops in order to comply, and does not protect workers.

Partial criminalisation that we have in the UK makes it unsafe for workers because we can't work together or share information freely.

Decriminalization is the best option for people working and society as a whole.

I must admit I veer between pro-Nordic model and then pro-Decriminalisation quite a lot...

I strongly believe men should be held accountable for their actions,
But targeting prostitution with useless and back-firing legislation is basically attacking the vulnerable.

From the quote from prostitutescollective.net:
"Anyone who associates with a sex worker (lover, friend, partner) can be done for controlling."

In the past 10 years, how many lovers, friends and partners in the UK have been charged with controlling? How many have then been convicted?

Pimps control prostitutes. Some lovers, friends or partners do pimp prostitutes and they should be prosecuted for controlling prostitution but I think the prostitutes' collective is being disingenuous, giving the impression that the police are routinely trying to frame innocent lovers, friends and partners for pimping.

Decades ago, the lovers, friends and partners of prostitutes used to run the risk of "living off immoral earnings". I don't know if that law still exists but the criminal justice system nowadays seems to prefer a law about "controlling prostitution". I remember having a discussion with a prostitute who used her money from prostitution to support her unemployable layabout partner. Decades ago, perhaps he could have been prosecuted for spending her money. Nowadays, he doesn't have to worry about prosecution because a prostitute and her associate can and do just stick to a story of no control.

For anyone who's actually willing to click on the links I'm providing, here's a ted talk from another current sex worker discussing the various legal models imposed on prostitution and their effects:

She's far better at driving the important points home than I am, so I'm actually begging you all to listen to her (and those of us she speaks for.)
It'll only take 20 minutes out of your day.

Barefoot - Have you asked clients what they think? Reading online punting forums gives you a very limited pool of clients to base your judgements on and, admittedly, they aren't a shining example in a lot of cases!

Fortunately, it's only a small percentage of clients that tend to post online... and many of their posts should be taken with a pinch of salt. Men do speak to each other about women in a pretty vulgar and 'male-bravado' type of way sometimes (sex work related or not) and it can make for grim reading when it's down in black and white instead of banter in a pub corner.

Many other posts on those forums are made by fantasists who've never even met a sex worker, or men who truly resent the women in this industry (of which, there are many). So believe me, most sex workers hate those forums just as much as you do.

I can't defend all clients as being sweet, lovely and respectful. I only wanted to point out that they are not inherently awful just because they pay for sex. They're a varied bunch, like any other collection of people, and most of them are pretty normal guys who just need a bit of sex and affection.

Also, the 'wanksock' comment in my last post was meant in a light-hearted way. I honestly wasn't attempting to twist your words.

As is, I hope, obvious to anyone who hasn't got a vested interest in twisting my words, I do not think of prostitutes as wanksocks.

Punters do, and worse, and that's why I despise punters.

I can provide a list of words that men who use prostitutes frequently use to refer to prostitutes that goes leagues beyond "wanksock". Do you require that list?

I offer only because you're obviously utterly terrified to acknowledge the truth about how the men who use prostitutes speak about you even as you lie to defend them as "nice guys" and twist what everyone here can see about how and why the term "wanksock" was used in this discussion.

"What are you 'criminalised' for?" so I assumed you wanted an answer

Yes I did want an answer. It was not clear to me what the activity being complained of as being criminalised was, given prostitution per se is not a crime although the activities which facilitate it are crimes. I'm clear now,thank you. You think those ancillary, facilitating activities should be legal. I don't.

Lass - Oh don't worry, your stance has been made very clear!

But you did ask, "What are you 'criminalised' for?" so I assumed you wanted an answer.

I'll hush up now and get back to being a 'wanksock', as Barefoot so eloquently put it