Corbyn - "I'm in favour of decriminalising the sex industry"

sillage The comment about believing everything you read on the Internet can apply equally to Rosalie Hayes' blog. I'm not sure it all stacked up either.

I have read Ophelia's, Brazen's and Strumpet's posts. If anything they have firmed up my view that anything which normalises pornography is wrong. I find much of what they are saying quite chilling- it's not so much the brutality which is involved (as Rosalie describes) but the sheer mundane ordinariness of the way they describe it.

Does that make sense? No decent human being could tolerate any one being treated as Rosalie describes- but as Ophelia et al describe? I can see some being persuaded that as long as it can be made safe, then what is the problem?

Noneedforasitter, shall we assume from your post that you agree with the pro-ho debaters that RosalieHaynes64 comes off like a manipulative bitch lying about being a prostitute because she moralistically despises sex workers and vindictively wants to make prostitution look bad?

Just trying to figure out if you believe everything you read on the internet or if there are some things written on the internet you don't swallow whole.

It seems to me that Massive, Brazen and Ophelia have all provided thoughtful accounts of the issues, based on first hand experience. To a greater or lesser extent, all three have identified issues which need addressing. They have done so eloquently and respectfully. Unfortunately, some of the responses to their posts have not shown the same respect. I would have hoped that any woman posting genuinely held view points based on actual experience on the feminist section of MN would at least get respect from all posters. Sadly that hasn't happened here.

I asked for an earlier post to be removed as I think I allowed my temper to get the better of my judgement and was unnecessarily aggressive. I apologise for that.

Oh, I forgot to put the *footnote in: when I say that I put in a lot of hours I mean that I am sat in my flat for many hours a day, relatively few of which are spent in bookings. I probably work about 60 hours a week, but spend 10-20 hours with clients.

There are parlours in my city where you're not put on the rota unless you can do at least 7 out of 12 hours in actual bookings (that's generally 10-14 punters) and many girls will work nearly 12 hours solid. It sounds like a nightmare but they go home with a lot of money at the end of the shift and they've expended relatively little mental energy earning it. I'm too old for that sort of thing, now, but I can see the appeal.

I've heard plenty of girls bitch about what it's like to work in those places and they prefer being independent, but none of them were forced to work there and they all freely chose it over other options like working in fast food or retail.

"I didn't put that very well. It's not just the violence which makes pimps wrong."

I see what you are saying.

But as I explained - sometimes it is advantageous to have a third party facilitating prostitution. I am generally very leery of such pimps - I don't have a whole lot of respect for agency owners, in particular. However, a lot of sex workers are not able to provide their own work venues and are perfectly happy to work at a parlour or for an incall agency or even a Soho walkup.

Being completely independent is a lot of work. I put in very long hours every week* and about a quarter of my gross income goes to overheads.
I rent a flat, which taking into account utilities/wifi/council tax costs nearly a thousand pounds a month. I also travel to other parts of Britain to work from hotels - so more costs, there. I have to stay on top of a lot of different advertising channels, answer the damn phone all day long, and generally put a lot of effort into setting everything up. If I thought I could just show up for the day at a brothel and go home with as much money as I net now, I would seriously consider it.

Oh! Yes - so quick I didn't see it.

They've just spammed a few threads with obnoxious comments. Mnhq appear to be quick on the button this evening though.

Not you, dusello. I've reported.

If you think that I am a troll then report me to MNHQ. They can ask me for proof of my identity as a prostitute which would be easy to give. I'd share it here but God only knows what some of you would do with it.

It's a troll...

That is not actually the part I find so wrong. In a bizarre way it is almost worse that you think the fact they are not violent makes it OK

I didn't put that very well. It's not just the violence which makes pimps wrong.

What I mean is that a lot of people legally defined as "pimps" are not vicious brutes

That is not actually the part I find so wrong. In a bizarre way it is almost worse that you think the fact they are not violent makes it OK.

What I mean is that a lot of people legally defined as "pimps" are not vicious brutes. There are vicious brutes, to be sure. But many prostitutes choose to work with a third party facilitating their bookings and venues. I have done so in the past and would consider it again if there were a "pimp" that offered me something of value in return for their cut of the revenue.

One of my closest friends "pimped" me for a few months - she rented a room to me to work from, as well as showed me the ropes for exactly how to work in the UK (where to advertise, etc.) Now, she never actually controlled prostitution for gain... she had no control over whom I saw, what I did, or what I charged. I was utterly autonomous. But she did rent me a room and so was running a brothel. In general parlance, someone who runs a brothel is a pimp.

By the same token, when people think of trafficking they often imagine something like abduction and forced prostitution. In fact, under UK law facilitating travel across borders for the purposes of prostitution is automatically considered trafficking. There absolutely are girls who want to come here to work and they are happy to let someone facilitate this for them. I think that they can be in a vulnerable position in that situation, but I know that it's not always an unhappy arrangement for the prostitute.

Not all "happy hookers" are independent escorts charging premium rates and working on their own. There are happy hookers in parlours and working for agencies. I think that the "lower" down the hierarchy, particularly for foreign migrants, you do find more of the relatively unhappy hookers. I even think there are miserable women who are coerced or otherwise don't have sufficient autonomy in their work.

But I do not believe that they are the majority of prostitutes in the UK.

Agree with lass

If you had stuck with the halpy hooker bit i might have thought "interesting" and nodded sagely at a more "experienced" point of view

But nope, you've lost me

You have to try and understand how pimps work. Very few of them force girls. The vast, vast majority are there to facilitate work for the girls. This can be an agency or massage parlour that provides bookings and venues or just someone who hangs out in the other room as "protection" when needed. Even the Eastern European girls who come over here know what they're getting into - and they're grateful to the people who set up their advertising, organise their work venues, etc

I am actually at a loss for words to describe how much I find wrong with this statement.

I didn't say it was "the same thing", I said it was prostitution and there are brothels and therefore it's one more example from thousands of how prostitution is a grotesque violation of women and children's human rights.

Your attempt to evade or dismiss anything about prostitution you've solipsistically decided doesn't pertain to your infinitesimally teensy, very specific situation is very selfish. It's not all about you.

Damn it. That should say "prostitution in Sudan is nowhere near the same thing" ^

sillage - Prostitution is Sudan is nowhere near the same thing as prostitution in the UK. The situation there is not comparable to here (and you already know that.)

We're talking about UK prostitution and UK law so your last post is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

"But I know that it's possible to make good money as a prostitute without getting beaten."

Bully for you that you're not one of those stupid women who gets themselves beaten up because they don't know what they're doing.

What do you think about what's happening in Sudan with the prostitution of women and girls being an increasingly established form of currency?

"The testimony from dozens of people working in Bentiu, the capital of South Sudan’s Unity state, points to the systematic abduction and abuse of women as a form of wages for forces allied to the government. The worst atrocities have led more than 110,000 people to seek safety at a UN base in the town.

'Their pay is what they loot and the women they abduct,' said one military expert based in Bentiu..."

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2015/sep/28/south-sudan-women-girls-raped-as-wages-for-government-allied-fighters

Are these women and children also dummies for not profiting more for themselves off the military men trading and selling their bodies for sexual abuse?

Are the buildings in which these women and children are being held for prostitution not technically "brothels", or are they included in your epic knowledge of how 100% safe all brothels are because pimps would never let their chattel get harmed?

Or maybe you think all this horrific prostitution in the Sudan is coordinated, calculated lies made up by manipulative women like Rosalie who hate sex workers and just want to make your "business" look bad?

I have never claimed to be a feminist. I believe that women should have equal rights, equal pay, etc. But whether or not that makes me a feminist or not I really don't care. It's not a political party.

But can you give me any coherent explanation for a university student who blogs and tweets saying that she is raped and beaten regularly? This is an articulate woman in a first-world country with access to social media. I do believe that educated, privileged women can get trapped into emotional and physical abuse... but do you really think this girl is chained up somewhere? Something out of the movie "Taken" that also lets her blog and go to uni?

I have known and advised other prostitutes "you don't have to put up with that shit." (Usually in terms of taking bookings that are obviously bad news.) It's true that some girls have skewed judgement because they learned skewed things at an early age and don't know that something is "off" about a caller. I'm not going to deny that. But this girl is saying the word "rape" - she is angry enough to compose an essay to a politician about it - but she is somehow compelled to continue? How? Why? Is someone holding her mother hostage or something?

I do believe it is hard to leave prostitution. If I decided right this second to never suck another cock again I would be as flummoxed as a housewife deciding to leave an abusive husband. How will I pay my bills? What else can I do?

But I know that it's possible to make good money as a prostitute without getting beaten. I say that as an utterly ordinary-looking, flat-chested middle-aged woman.

Why do you think a brothel will allow clients to beat up their girls? It makes no sense. For one thing, clients don't want some bruised and battered girl. They want to believe that the girl is willingly and happily having sex with them. There are undoubtedly some who don't care one way or the other - but the majority of British punters would be horrified if they thought the girls weren't happy to see them. For another thing, the primary benefit a pimp offers girls is protection. When I worked in a brothel I liked being safe around other people. I liked that Tommy dealt with the gas and electric and phone bills and handled the advertising. I put up with his rules because I could make easy money. The girls I know who work at brothels do so because it suits them to do so for various reasons. None of them would continue if they didn't feel it was a safe and easy way to work.

You have to try and understand how pimps work. Very few of them force girls. The vast, vast majority are there to facilitate work for the girls. This can be an agency or massage parlour that provides bookings and venues or just someone who hangs out in the other room as "protection" when needed. Even the Eastern European girls who come over here know what they're getting into - and they're grateful to the people who set up their advertising, organise their work venues, etc. I am no fan of pimps. But I at least know more about them than you do and I have some clue as to why they exist and why some women choose to work with them.

I've heard plenty of complaints from girls about working with a "pimp." I understand what the actual issues are. There have been times I have worked with a "pimp" because it suited me to have their assistance. There are reasons I currently work independently - I don't need what they have to offer.

But at no point have I felt as if being forced or coerced was an issue.

"I'm not a fan of brothels and their rules, but I know that they all have security and don't tolerate violent clients."

Is that what you know?

Your entire post reads like a bingo card for disbelieving domestic violence, starting right at the top, "it's not clear why she feels forced to endure frequent beatings...she's not physically captive."

Someone who blames abused women with, "Why didn't she just leave?" is not a feminist.

Someone who says brothels "don't tolerate violent clients" is a terrible liar.

Your words have led me to believe you're not a feminist and you're a terrible liar.

Strumpet - Agree with your posts re. Rosalie's blog... I thought similarly that most of what she claimed was a load of bollocks didn't quite ring true.

But I was hesitant to voice my doubts due to anticipating posts like turoide's and accusations of victim blaming.

The thing is, even if Rosalie's blog is true, her issue is child abuse not prostitution. Had she been protected by existing laws regarding child abuse, her situation would have been very different.

I think a lot of people believe what they want to believe about prostitution. Somehow, one (most likely false) blog detailing horror is more believable than the handful of sex workers on this thread sharing their experiences, the many sex workers behind the ECP, Amnesty International etc.

Rosalie's blog fits the narrative, so it's held up as truth while the rest of us are dismissed as a 'happy hooker' minority (which we aren't.)