Corbyn - "I'm in favour of decriminalising the sex industry"

I think the main difference would be you'd have legal & illegal brothels, whereas in NZ they'd all none criminal. And the brothel I worked in was pretty large - up to 40 or 50 women on per night with two bars, many rooms with Jacuzzis etc so yea pretty much mega, if not as big as some of the FKK places in Germany.

To Ophelia, I totally agree that you become disillusioned with prostitution as time goes on. I have a friend who - like me - is going through the process of trying to leave the industry, and it is something we talk about. How we thought it was amazing when we started because of the money, and the fact you could travel etc but hating it crept up on us. Its why I find it hard to talk to women who are brand new to the game who think its amazing and don't understand why I'm much more cynical. They tell themselves they'll always love it; I told myself that too.

I've also considered the Nordic model for reasons such as you have suggested.

I woke up this morning, and I dreamed that decriminalisation had been passed through parliament (Ha! I have such boring dreams!)
Seriously, though, I woke up believing it had been, and with it I felt this huge sadness and almost despair.

I've always been on the fence. But really, hand on heart, prostitution should be stigmatized and it should be discouraged. Elements of it should be illegal and criminal.

I used to be all "Oh but it's a choice, we should accept it, make it easy and safe" but honestly, all sex workers eventually start to understand and feel how it dehumanizes you. How it impacts on your life path in a negative way. I find it hard to relate to people outside of the sex industry and there are people who I know would hate me if they knew the real me. Even with its perks, It's inevitably a hard path to "choose" it's a hard life to lead.

Decriminalisation would make it easier and arguably safer, but also more accessable.

I'd support the Nordic Model wholeheartedly, after much deliberation.

Should probably add the fact that I am/was a victim of CSA and the fact I am a career sex worker are quite probably not mere coincidences.

Under Nordic model, I imagine it would send a message to men that treating females as sex objects is wrong and actually illegal, which is a powerful message and one that could filter through to protect girls in childhood.

Strumpet, what you said about entitled expectations rings so true. On the outcalls I have done with Escort Agencies, I find they have a much more demanding attitude compared to those visiting me at parties with lots of other ppl around.

I used to find it emotionally draining how they would insist that you orgasm! Y'know, then if you act it out, they'd constantly question you about it or demand you orgasm again. It takes so much out of you!

Or you get the guys with "Death Grip" making your jaw/wrist ache! Haa! It's quite unusual to be subject to violence though. These blogs around saying how common violence is are fantasist.

But would the problems with Germany be any different under decriminalisation? Would there be mega brothels?

"Do you think Germany have got it about right then?"

Sexwork orgs tend to advocate for decriminalisation such as in New Zealand, that is different from Germany's model (legalisation, just like Amsterdam).

Yes exactly, they are always trying to push boundaries because they feel more and more entitled. I'd get, "what, you charge £xxx per hour and you don't offer owo/cim/anal?? Who do you think you are??" Not to my face, invariably, but in reviews/ internet posts etc

One of the others reasons I'm sceptical about full decrim; some women in NZ have reported that the punters have become even more demanding because they think they are ordinary 'consumers'. As you say, its the downside of lifting the stigma.

I've noticed as a mother of young children that the more you give them, the more they demand and the less happy they are despite all they're given. If you took a child to Alton Towers and literally indulged their every whim and bought them every bauble they pointed their sticky finger at, by the end of the day they'd be in tears.

In the same way, the more punters are given, the less satisfied they are. I don't mind the kissing, but I do find it tedious to constantly negotiate my "likes" list. Not to mention the vast number of inquiries for things not on the list.

If you do oral without a condom, they'll want you to swallow. Or a facial. Offer giving watersports (peeing on a man is something I don't mind at all) and they'll ask if they can piss in your mouth.

That was actually another reason why I left. I used to use mostly my own website than AW gained a monopoly on the industry & you are compelled to expose so much more of yourself to any passing voyeur or punter. Photos, likes lists, reviews etc etc

And yes those likes lists mean that punters expect you to give them everything you have listed, whereas before I just gave as much as I felt like depending on the punter. And if you don't put what you 'like' than you risk not getting bookings.

The current system works to the punter's advantage.

The vast majority of clients I actually see are awesome. But I reject the majority of booking inquiries.

The near monopoly on the UK industry by adultwork is a big part of the problem. The extensive "likes" list that is interpreted as a menu. I have noticed that the truly "high class" escorts (charging double or triple what I do) with glossy websites are always very coy about what sexual activities will take place. So, there may still be hold outs against the general tide.

But, as privileged as I may be, I can't imagine doing it myself. I'm trying to break free from adultwork, trying other directories and my own website. But it isn't enough and most of my clients still come from AW.

This is exactly the same reason I prefer the term prostitute, especially seeing as even brothel owners et al sometimes refer to themselves as 'sex workers'. Not delineating along actual working lines is hugely problematic because it supposes our concerns are the same.

I wholeheartedly agree with you on the subject of German mega brothels - I can't see how anyone has managed to convince themselves that they would be good for the women working in them. I have also worked in a very large, mega-ish brothel in NZ and they really are not places set up with the women's interests in mind. Like you, I also agree that stigma/taboo is one of the reasons this job pays well compared to other non-professional labours & the general fact that it is a job that most people would rather not do. I've already noticed punters re-positioning themselves as 'consumers' & asking why they should have to pay so much if 'it is a job like any other' etc

I am also aware that, from my FC article, the PSE culture has started to overtake the GFE culture. In fact, that is one of the reasons I started to question the industry in the first place; I felt punters were asking for more and more from us without getting more pay. I am writing an article about the 'pornstar experience' currently. However the article is also meant to point out the way in which some pro industry advocates are trying to legitimise 'suburbanise' prostitution in the cultural imagination, not just the GFE act in itself.

I agree you should have the right to get on with your life and as the worker you should not be criminalised. I am ambivalent about the Nordic model, however I would welcome more services being available for those working who did really want to leave. You might not, but for many I've known that do - it can be very difficult and there is little to no support.

Sorry, long post!

I prefer to say "prostitute" when discussing having sex for money. (I only ever even use "escort" with clients - as they don't like to hear me call a spade a spade.) I agree that including strippers and phone chat workers under the same umbrella is stupid. It's now to the point where we are chastised if we draw a distinction in a way that might sound critical. Well, I do draw a distinction between what I do and what a stripper does. I even draw one between what I do and what a streetwalker does. We have different motives and means and ends. We're not the same.

I do think that most of the prostitutes like me are genuinely speaking as individuals. Although there are entities like The English Prostitutes Collective, the truth is that we are utterly disorganised. Most of us are at least somewhat flakey and even getting together for a small gathering over drinks is like herding cats.

We all express opinions based on our own experiences and our own self-interests. Why on Earth would I support a model like Germany's with their corporate brothels and the daily tax that has to be paid before any money is even earned? No, I'm quite happy with things the way they are. I don't even really mind the stigma too much. Without the stigma (and, honestly, the risk), this job wouldn't pay nearly half as well.

I have worked on the street, but only briefly and in a place where it was utterly illegal (although sometimes tolerated by local law enforcement.) I have worked in brothels both in another country and in the UK. (Briefly in the UK because brothels here are shit and miserly and fuck that.)

I read the blog linked above and read several posts and followed a link to this:

www.feministcurrent.com/2016/02/22/whoreburbia-gentrification-sex-work/

The "high class" escort isn't really all that rare. As the link above explains, many of us moved to being independent Internet-based escorts from "lower" forms of sexwork. I am one of those old enough to remember when all you had to do was the bare basics with a polite smile and I have definitely noticed the change towards greater so-called "intimacy" with the "Girlfriend Experience." However, that writer's a bit behind the times, now. The GFE is now considered bog standard and vanilla. The pressure is on to produce the PSE: Porn Star Experience. Nobody can quite agree what it means because there are so many different forms of porn out there. But it's usually stuff that no wife or girlfriend would tolerate and it generally involves acting like you enjoy deep throat to the point of vomiting.

I wouldn't tolerate any of the situations described in this post:

inpermanentopposition.wordpress.com/2016/03/16/interviews-with-escorts-sickness-sodomy/comment-page-1/#comment-7

We're not forced to do anything, however much pressure we may feel under by those stupid prostitute review sites.

At any rate, I'll admit that not everything I do is fun and some of the clients I've had have been unpleasant (not violent). However, I am an adult and I believe that I have the right to make my own decisions. I can have sex with whomever I want for whatever reason I want, so long as they are a consenting adult. I just want to earn my money, pay my taxes, raise my kids, and be left alone by people who first claim to want to help me and then revile me and insinuate that I am a puppet of some pimp lobby when I reject their offer of help.

I like this article

Prostitution: A Job Like Any Other? – In Permanent Opposition
inpermanentopposition.wordpress.com/2016/03/17/prostitution-a-job-like-any-other/comment-page-1/#comment-11

“It is as useless to compare prostitution with nursing or massage therapy as it is to compare burglary with furniture removals.”

I think Germany has a system of legalisation, rather than the decriminalisation that the sexworker organisations say is best. I am not sure how that works out in practice, though.

I am not keen on the system as it is in Germany if it means big corporate chains of brothels.

Personally, I'm happy with things the way they are now - essentially decriminalisation. It's illegal to control prostitution for gain or run a brothel. But, then, I would as I work independently. For all I know, there are prostitutes who would love to work in big, corporate brothels.

Some sexworkers, not all, surely. Do you think Germany have got it about right then?

Rosalie is a liar and fraud btw

Corbyn's views may be unpopular with feminists but sexworkers are supportive of his views:

www.theguardian.com/voluntary-sector-network/2016/mar/04/jeremy-corbyn-right-decriminalising-sex-industry-way-forward

Rosalie is now lashing out at people offering to help her by accompanying her to the police or mother. She's saying that to offer help in any form is somehow an attack on her.

The only acceptable response to her alarming posts is to retweet and praise her for her courage. Everything else is unacceptable.

Her pain and anger sound genuine to me. Her stories do not. They don't added up

I agree. I haven't agreed with most of what you have said Massive . I'm not sure either side can make much of her individual case other than she seems to be very troubled.


Sunnyside many victims don't go to the police and I can imagine that it's helpful to blog.

Are you still in that abusive situation? If you are, are you able to respond to concerned readers' questions about how you can be helped or why you can't leave without feeling attacked? I know it's not as simple as "why don't you leave?" but would you feel attacked if asked, "why do you feel as if you can't leave?"

noneedforasitter I hadn't even thought about that. Everything she describes, would be no less likely under full criminalisation.

Rosalie posted yesterday another incident. She went to uni to tell someone about her situation, but there was no one to talk to (not clear what she meant.) She went to the toilet. A recent client saw her and followed her and said she hadn't given him enough time when he'd met her. He then raped her in the restroom, and then made two small slices on her forearm to teach her a lesson.

According to her blog, she has been violently attacked at least four times in the past month - twice to the point she thought she might die. She's posted photos of bruises and cuts.

To me, the injuries look self inflicted.

She claims that she doesn't get paid. Her pimp collects all of her money. According to her, she's lucky because she's allowed to go home, but other girls are trapped in the brothel.

She's apparently told someone who tried to help her that she can't quit until next year, but not why.

Offers of help are ignored, and anyone trying to understand the situation by asking any questions at all is cursed at.

She says she lives with her mother - And her mother doesn't know anything about what's going on, in spite of seeing blood in her bed and bruises on her body when she's undressing.

She says that nobody at uni has any idea that anything is wrong at all.

So, she gets wounds to her thighs and forearms, but nobody hits her face. I find this very odd. One careful abuser may avoid the face, but why would a succession of strangers bother?

I cannot imagine why she would tolerate this situation. I've read many a story on here by women in abusive relationships. Most of them blame themselves and make excuses for their abusers. It's like Stockholm Syndrome. But Rosalie never does. She consistently asserts that she is being raped and abused. I'm unable to believe that someone who is not physically compelled but not brainwashed would return to the abuse again and again.

Her rhetoric is full of all the terms of radical feminism, right down to her language for transwomen. It's not consistent with a helpless victim or someone who has been manipulated and worn down into accepting abuse.

I have written a blog about my abuser. I haven't been to the police.

Sillage - honestly I don't know what to think about the Rosalie Hayes blog. She describes three horrific crimes in her blog: child abuse, rape and assault, with the assault at least well documented with primary evidence. So why not go to the police? If a victim goes to the trouble of setting it all out in a blog, why not hand it over to the criminal justice system? I just don't understand that. Maybe she has, and the blog is historic? I can't imagine the police would ignore an illegal brothel where there was such violent activity. I also don't understand why she keeps going back. It is very hard to imagine how the situation is perpetuated.

But I'm not sure it matters much whether you believe the blog is real or not, because I certainly believe all of those things can and do happen. Women are raped, including sex workers; children are abused and women are assaulted. The question is what should be done to prevent it.

The Rosalie argument seems to run along the lines of "this is horrific so let's criminalise prostitution". But all the horrific descriptions in the blog are already crimes (including the operation of her brothel). So it begs the question, what would expanding the set of crimes achieve for RH?

I don't think Rosalie Haynes comes across as a manipulative bitch, etc etc. I have read every word of her blog and all of her tweets. I believe that she's a woman in a great deal of pain and I feel sorry for her. Her pain and anger sound genuine to me. Her stories do not. They don't added up.

Agreed that no one has to believe anything they read on the internet. That's why making cogent, reasonable points in a debate is so much more important that a stranger demanding other strangers, "respect my authority!"

There is no sense behind the trite retort, "I got sex worker friends who say 'nuh uh' to all the research, police reports, and news articles."

Sorry "normalises prostitution"