Single sex birthday parties

But who has said they should be forced? Of course it is not parental choice (at least not always) Most of us just 'accept' it. Some of us (at least me) don't feel particularly comfortable with it and don't see it as a natural choice only. It is influenced by a wider context. Others here seem to believe it is totally natural. So I ask: when does it stop? My tendency to seek female company has increased over the years.

I don't want anybody to dictate I should have friends from both sex now that I am well passed my 40s . Is it good that girls and boys adopt this as the norm? I don't think so, and unproblematic rationalisations of this as 'natural' because sex is a biological feature reinforces gender division too.

I suppose what I was trying to say is that I feel like it is the opposite of feminism to insist that girls who are 'at that awkward age' be forced to spend time together no matter how uncomfortable it might make them. If I had been groped like that aged 20 or 30 I would have spoken up and I would have reported it to my employer and expected that the groper be dealt with.

As an 11 year old I had no one to turn to. I couldn't tell my parents and I wouldn't have dreamt of telling a teacher.

Note that I am not in favour of single sex parties. Just saying that they happen, and it's not necessarily by parental choice.

I'm not saying at all that it's natural for either gender to play football.

In our countries, football is more associated with men and less with women.
I was saying it just ends up being something that both boys and girls perceive and join in accordingly. And that sometimes it may not be necessarily that the boys exclude the girls, more something that may happen both ways.

But if someone asked Lweji, would you be happy if the answer was: 'No, we prefer to play with boys'. I was not too impressed to be honest. I did not intervene although talking to the school crossed my mind. I did not want my daughter to be imposed on the boys.

Can we also conclude that girls are naturally not inclined towards football? You give yourself the example of the US, so it does not seem so natural.

Anyway, I am still unclear when to stop this. The episode of groping reported above, could also happen when you are 20/25/30. I don't feel more comfortable naked around the opposite sex as I age. All the contrary. Shall we have only male/female transports/workplaces/etc?

As I said, I believe it is not a ridiculous debate at all and understand the frustration of the OP perfectly well.

Except perhaps in the US where football has been for many years a "girls" sport, or the small number of countries with strong women's teams, I suspect in most other countries girls are not particularly welcome among boys playing it.

Granted, most teams my DS play against and in his team there are often one or two girls. Maybe one on average. But the parents of the girl playing in DS's team are not particularly happy with her doing a boy's sport.
We are not in the UK.

I've just asked DS (11 yo) and he said that they'd say it was ok if a girl wanted to play with them, but none has asked. Ever, apparently.

When exactly are girls and boys meant to fight this 'natural' tendency? At what age should men and women welcome the other sex in their professional teams, for instance, when they are more comfortable with persons of the same sex?

I also have an 11 years old treaclesoda who is developing much faster than her peers and finds the chit chat about boys who don't reach her elbow unbearable. She wanted to play football with the boys at school. She was either not allowed or the ball was not passed to her. My son, who is 9, explained to her that boys prefer to play with boys, but if she became real good, she would be probably welcome, because wining was important. Does it sound familiar? You need to be good to be part of the boys' club (and I guess vice versa). She actually joined a club, trained with her father and she is decent enough to be an acceptable player now.

As a migrant, I accept this society and try to adapt to it the best I can. My children were born and raised here. I will not do them any favour imposing my nostalgic view of a society where sex segregation is not so widely accepted, as reflected clearly in single sex education percentages.

I don't have a way of 'fighting' this, but I believe is a suitable topic of conversation in a 'feminist Chat'. It is astonishing to see how many accept the 'nature' argument as valid. Even if it was all about nature (and I don't know a single aspect of social science where the debate nature/nurture has been concluded with clear results) it would be worth debating whether it should be accepted or not.

Using Freudian theories in a feminist forum as an authority puzzles me. Someone with the command of English mathanxiety displays, using personal attacks and drama, reproduces the worst features of the Old Boys Networking many of us try to counter. She could perfectly engage with the argument -no matter how stupid it is on her eyes- rather than humiliation. I read this forum to learn, not to be patronized, nor to see how others are patronized. I get enough of this elsewhere. There ought to be some degree of mutual respect when engaging with other women regarding a totally appropriate issue.

When I was 11, and starting to develop, one of the boys in my class pinned me against wall in the playground and grabbed by breast and twisted as hard as he could, it was agony. Most of the boys in the class stood and watched and laughed, and continued to refer to it and laugh for some weeks afterwards. Not a single one of them appeared to see anything wrong with it. I was bruised and in pain for days. But most of all I was humiliated. When 11 year old girls are on the receiving end of behaviour like that, and it is frighteningly common, I don't think it is sexist at all that they feel more comfortable with other girls. It is self preservation.

Similarly I don't think it is sexist that young boys with breaking voices and the beginnings of body hair would feel more comfortable with other young boys.

They have all the time in the world to cultivate friendships again once the most stressful period of puberty has passed. If they want to. If they don't want to, no big deal.

I think it's because it's a hiring Lewji. We've had to pay separately for the lifeguards too. We've got the pool/slides/changing rooms and a party room to ourselves for 2 hours.

The leisure centre has stated that attending children must be supervised in the changing rooms. DH is not available and I am not comfortable supervising 10 and 11 year old boys

I'm surprised by this.

At our local swimming pool children are allowed unsupervised in the changing rooms from 8 years old. Surely it should be the centre's responsibility to keep an eye on changing rooms regardless.

Girls with growing breast buds who have already had the piss taken out of them by the boys? Nope, not sexist, just uncomfortable.

Me being an unaccompanied female in an open changing room with naked boys? Nope, not sexist, just following safeguarding considerations.

4 boys not being invited would lead to accusations of bullying and 'leaving people out' especially by those parents who do not believe their children are anything but Angels. Not sexist, pragmatic.

2 girls who could not attend due to cultural considerations? Not sexist, being sensitive to their cultural beliefs and not discriminating against them because of them.

The boys in DDs class do not want to play netball, nor do they want to choreagraph dances or write songs for performances. Not sexist, simply playing with people who have the same interests as her.

The girl who cannot swim (for a very good reason) is well liked amongst her friends and comfortable enough to be open with them. The girls won't take the piss because they understand.

Don't invent sexism where none exists.

it is hard to know where to start with all the implicit sexism in that post.

girls would feel awkward around boys? then they are being sexist.
You would feel more uncomfortable supervising boys than girls? then you are being sexist.
Some boys in the class are horrors therefore you exclude all boys? definition of sexism.
2 girls couldn't attend if boys were there? They or their parents are extraordinarily sexist.
You give more importance to the sexist requirements of a few of the girls than the sexism of excluding all the boys? You are being sexist.
your DD doesn't play with any of the boys in her class? She is being sexist.
You claim girls don't take the piss as much as boys? You are being sexist.

It isn't rocket science. People are sexist. Society is sexist.

The only decisions you can make are whether or not to facilitate and encourage it. Apparently you are happy for all this sexist reasoning to go into a decision. I wouldn't be happy with that, and I wouldn't be happy to support such sexist decision making on the part of my child either.

Because it's a swimming party and:

1. Some of the girls invited are going through puberty and are uncomfortable around the boys.
2. 3 of the girls invited have cultural reasons to prefer being seperate from the boys.
3. 4 of the boys in the class cannot swim at all (1 of the girls can't but she is happy to wear a float vest and the other girls won't take the piss).
4. 2 girls would not be allowed to attend if boys were invited.

Also:

DD doesn't play with the boys in her class, not at all.
DD has 4 boys in the class that are absolute horrors and she doesn't want them spoiling her birthday.
The leisure centre has stated that attending children must be supervised in the changing rooms. DH is not available and I am not comfortable supervising 10 and 11 year old boys - I wouldn't want to embarrass them.
DDs 'out of school' male friends are mostly older and wouldn't want to attend an 11 yr olds birthday party.

Oh and most importantly - it's DDs choice.

are you sure it is my posting style that's important here? Maybe it is more that you don't like being called sexist either?

IF your DD has 'plenty of male friends' why didn't she invite any of them to her party?

Smacks a bit of 'I'm not racist, I have a black friend' really.

oh no...so sorry.

I prefer Math's sensible and clear posting far more than your Passive Aggression Icebeing.

camaleon yeah people do get aggressive when you point out they are facilitating and encouraging sexism don't they?

ahha I see math so racism is a learnt behaviour from adults...but sexism is an entirely natural and an unstoppable force of nature....that other countries apparently manage to combat quite well.

What utter bullshit.

Does this assessment, have anything to do with the fact you have been called out as sexist and not as racist I wonder?

Back in reality the cases are identical. There is a nature element, some evolutionary based mechanism for the existence of both intrinsic racism and intrinsic sexism. Then there is a massive dollop of nurture in both cases.

The UK is curiously accepting of institutionalised sexism, as can be seen by the huge amount of sexism shown in advertising to children, and the sexism seen in many aspects of school including uniforms.

I personally don't find it any more acceptable that a parent would reduce the number invited to a party by arbitrarily excluding all female children than by arbitrarily excluding all black children, or all Muslim children.

Isn't the point about race and gender is that you see what you look for? If you look at external appearance, then yes, race and gender are external ways of seeing difference.

That this difference has meaning, though, is socially constructed - in what other way can it be constructed? To paraphrase Dorothy Sayers, humans are most like each other than they are like any other species in the world. So what evolutionary purpose is there in looking for difference amongst humans? There is none, only a social purpose.

The point math makes if I understand correctly, is that you can impose external markers of gender but that does not change born sex. A boy is still a boy if he behaves in a way society deems 'female'. My son wants to wear nail varnish, he is still my son.

Race - my neighbour is still my neighbour regardless of whether she is racialised as white, Asian or Black. In fact, if I tell you my neighbour is kind, also a working mother and very bubbly and positive, do you have a clue as to her skin colour? No, but you know her sex and the kind of person she is. You maybe even have some idea whether you might like her for a neighbour from what I have said about her personality.

DS was quite clear about who he wanted at his birthday party in reception. It actually included one girl, and that was about the last time his friends from school who were invited included girls.

DD put out the invites to her party yesterday. 11 kids, all girls. She has invited all the girls in her class (including 2 she doesn't really like) and no boys. It's a pool party at a local leisure centre.

She could have had a whole class party if she wanted - I asked her if she did, but she absolutely didn't. In fact her words were "God no!" I don't have a problem with it at all, I understand exactly why she doesn't want any boys there, there are reasons beyond "urgh, boys"...and it's her birthday, not mine.

She's been to 6 parties in the last 2 years. The only time a boy attended was the younger brother of the birthday girl.

She has plenty of male friends outside school, but none in school.

It doesn't seem to be an unusual thing in my area at least.

Wow... the level of aggression is quite something. A few among us -ignorant as we are- believe sex segregation is not 'natural'/or at least not only natural. More importantly, we are happy to discuss it.
Are you an academic mathanxiety? Or do you have a better Freudian theory to explain the full-fledge lecture, where you assert your authority, in the worst patriarchal sense of the therm.
After reading your diatribe about race -I imagine trying to distinguish it from gender- I couldn't tell the difference based on your words (I an actually tell the difference otherwise; you fail to explain it yourself)

I would like to know at what age is it ok to ask your children who to invite? If can only host 10-15 children and they only want one gender is that ok?

Ha ha, are you drunk Ice?

IceBeing, you are being worse than ridiculous. I do of course know their sex. They are either boys or girls, and how they express that is up to them, be it in leaning towards sports or art or music or cooking or fashion. Some are outgoing, some are reserved, some are kind and empathetic and some are more brash. If you asked them they would tell you whether they are boys or girls, because they have a solid grasp of very basic biology and understand how to distinguish male from female in the human species. It's not that hard. You can wear pink shorts and play the clarinet and enjoy creating nice desserts for your family and keep your bedroom neat and pee in a urinal in school, using your penis.

And it is not in fact a local problem. Though it may of course be a local problem in multiple possible different places across the world (lol)
With that remark and your insistence that sex is irrelevant and unknowable and altogether mysterious, I am wondering if you suffer much from back pain, since twisting yourself into a pretzel seems to be a habit of yours.

Thirdly discrimination by skin colour is also perfectly natural. We feel more relaxed and secure around people who look like us. Totally natural evolutionary bias.
You are speaking for yourself and only yourself on that score. You should be utterly ashamed of yourself.

Race is a hierarchical concept based on the artificial concept of race. Its only function is to maintain the oppression of those 'races' considered inferior. Our culture is awash in racism and has been for centuries, but that doesn't mean it is anything but an artificial construct. Or natural evolutionary anything. Same goes for gender. Shame on you as a woman for seeking to carve in stone something that has only done women harm. And if you are a man then educate yourself.

The only reason kids don't think it is okay to only have white friends is if we show by example that it isn't.
And of course you have got that bass ackwards too. Children learn racism from their parents. They don't unlearn it from enlightened adults. There is no 'natural evolutionary bias'.

I am gobsmacked.

I am actually speechless.