Trans women as NUS Women's Officer- Part 2

I think people need to be a bit careful linking to the public discourse site. There are some good articles on trans there but the Witherspoon Institute, who run the site, are a US right-wing think tank who oppose gay marriage and abortion rights.

www.newscientist.com/article/dn28584-a-welcome-blow-to-the-myth-of-distinct-male-and-female-brains/

The 'brain' theory is used, supposedly as 'evidence,' that transgender people are closer to the other sex. It's rubbish. There isn't a male or female brain.

Your friend might have considered the views in the article as bunkum, but there's certainly much food for thought there. I'm a leftie but I agree with the writer.

I have been lurking on these threads with interest.

I read that article linked to down thread, (this one) and forwarded it to a friend, thinking it was a good way of explaining the emperors new clothes element to all this.

He emailed back saying it was "hateful nonsense".

This took me aback. I don't feel hateful...and I agreed with a lot of the stuff in the article. Am I a bigot then? The only thing I didn't really feel was warranted was where the new female names of people who have gone through gender reassignment surgery were put in inverted commas. It seemed a bit mean and unnecessary.

I felt unsettled enough to do another internet search, whereupon I found many pieces like this.

There are a lot of references to medical and scientific evidence that shows you can, in fact, be a (paraphrasing) "woman trapped in a man's body" - scans showing that pre-op or pre-hormone treatment brains are different from men's brains - thoughts on this?

Additionally, there are lots of articles suggesting that the author of the original link (McHugh) is a conservative catholic with an agenda.

I feel uneasy.

But also, why am I being called "hateful"? It's very emotive language is it not?

Feel like I can't see the wood for the trees here. All I really care about is that women's right aren't eroded or that children aren't subjected to hormone treatment.

WTF is going on?

^^ Yes, that's who I meant! Thank you Hazy.

It was MrsTodds btw in case anyone is searching!

Thank you for your posts at the beginning of this thread MrsPotts. You've helped me understand some other poster's pov that I incorrectly perceived as intolerance.

One thread in particular left me confused as to why some posters had a lack of empathy etc. This thread has put it into context for me and although I stand by my personal views I appreciate what others are saying, now that it is in context.

Maryz your suggestion of removing segregation of sex is interesting! Or how about transgender identifying as transgender and having transgender spaces etc. It's a complex subject and perhaps I naive but I don't believe it's a phase. I completely agree that children should be encouraged to feel comfortable in their own skin, I get to a crossroads when they become adolescent and want to make 'independent' decisions. Sorry to derail, just wanted to thank MrsPotts and to everyone that's contributed to the thread, it's really helped pur the subject into perspective for me.

Another article -

www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2016/01/16143/

I have just read this -

www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/06/15145/

Sorry it isn't coming up as a link - it's an article by Paul McHugh on the public discourse website - anyway, it has restored my sanity.

OMG
Got a letter back from my MP.
Can hardly believe it.
I didn't think my letter to him was a rant but I listed issues with communal toilets, cost to nhs, support by nhs, school changing rooms, men should be more accepting in men's toilets, public changing rooms, Olympics competitors.

The response was a ticking off as he claimed I'd accused a trans of raping the Lancaster uni student, which I hadn't. Then

'WE are proud that under an SNP Government Scotland has been ranked by ILGA-Europe - the European region of the International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association - in its rainbow map as the most inclusive country in Europe for lesbian, gay bisexual, transgender and intersex equality. This recognizes our positive record in supporting equality and LGBTI rights.

We were the first national Government in Europe to fund a transgender rights programme: we included trans and intersex matters in the Offences (Aggravation by Prejudice) (Scotland) Act 2009, which we supported; and we have the most progressive marriage legislation on trans issues.

I am proud of our record in this area'

He goes on to say my concerns with the health service will be passed on to the Scottish Health minister.
If he can be of any further assistance in the meantime, please let me know.

And that's the response to all my questions - Unbelievable.

Agree that Anna's manifesto is completely trans-orientated. Cant believe (even in the lala land of man = woman) that people have actually argued that the manifesto is representative of women. I wonder if i'm reading completely different things sometimes!!

Cote You are 100% right....that is why I refuse to use phrases like 'cis'.

I was trying to make the point that women have/need safe spaces because of their sex not because of gender (Which doesn't exist, unless you want it too)

If I rewrote my post posting women and transwomen and men, how long would it be before I got banned from Mumsnet !

We have to be very accurate in what we write and noone can deny that ALL people who have sex of woman are women.

I imagine quite a few of you are there already but there's a FB group where these issues are being discussed sensibly and in detail. If you'd like to join please PM me and I will let you know how to be added

'the group of people who have sex of woman'

FEMALE. The word you are looking for is female.

Let's please continue to use the word 'female', or I fear we will lose it just like we seem to have lost 'woman'.

In Anna Lee's case, I don't feel they can represent the group of people who have sex of woman. Looking at Anna's manifesto, it concentrates mainly on their own needs not ours.

As the NUS already have a person to represent gay people and a person to represent trans people, I feel the candidates for the person to represent people with sex of woman, should BE a person with sex of woman.

I do not believe in 'gender' and identifying as having a gender of female, does not give Anna Lee the understanding or knowledge to represent and support people who have sex of woman.

What's the cut off for the DOJ consultation on the trans proposals?

I agree that everyone should be protected from male violence and no one should be left unprotected.

In one sense these proposed changes to making 'gender change' are better. Like the last PP, knowing that no surgery will change the sex of a person but rather give a basic surface appearance. It is better not to make people who are happy with their penis remove it, the alternatives are not easy.

But if a person likes their body and using their penis for sexual reasons and has a sex of male, what characteristics do they share with a person who has a sex of woman.

Don't we have a circle on one side of people who have a sex of woman..ie Most of this site. And another circle on the other side with no overlapping needs or desires of people who have a sex of male but reject that grouping and wish to be considered socially to have a gender of female.

Whatever the labels and pronouns used to describe both groups, there are no common areas. Therefore each groups needs should be addressed separately.

I think having separate options is the way to go. We should not allow a separate and conflicting group colonise people with sex of woman safe spaces, create new safe spaces for the other group.

I would be interested if anyone could think of any overlapping areas of similarity but from my view, I see none.

Yes indeed. Sometimes it seems like it really matters to these people, and this poor young man especially, what the whole world thinks he is. No one else cares - they either like you or they don't, nothing to do with which gender or sex or whatever you are.

It's like really extreme navel gazing...making a personal matter so very public. Nobody cares.

I really feel sorry for him, and I wonder whether the issues he clearly has are just issues that could have been sorted out with a bit of therapy or counselling.

You know that thing where you think cutting your hair is going to make you feel so much better, and then you regret it - well I've learned not to act on that one any more. I think it might be the same sort of thing.

People are either comfortable with themselves or they aren't, and if they aren't they will find something to fixate on, which they think might solve the problem. And it rarely does, because how bad you feel isn't about your appearance or your perception in the eyes of the world.

I think it's a huge, HUGE mistake to pin all your problems on one feature of yourself and obsess about it to the point of surgery - whether that's your breasts, your nose or your gender.

In that sense I am very much in favour of men NOT having de- or re-constructive surgery or whatever you call it, to change their genitals and so on. I think it's probably better to leave everything exactly how it is until you might want to use it again.

Our bodies are a gift. And we might hate them but they are all we've got.

There was a time when I would have sympathised on some level but with women's rights to safety even self-definition being eroded thanks to aggressive transactivist agenda, I don't have a single fuck left to give.

Oh and I think he's decided to stay female after all now.

I can't keep up.

I mean I feel sorry for young children who really have no proper say as they are too young. But also more gullible and vulnerable adults. Not to say that this man is one. I don't know anything about him.

I don't know the full story here but I do sympathise on some level. I often imagine the young 'trans' people of today, getting older and realising they been totally let down by everyone who lead them to believe that they needed to change sex and that this is actually possible.