Trans women as NUS Women's Officer- Part 2

Yep Vix.

The BBC didn't mention the word trans in their web article either although now I see they have added that she was born a man under the photo but that wasn't there originally.

In the rolling news on R4, she was described as a woman and a daughter and there was no mention of the fact that she is a man who has changed her name. Because that's all you need to do apparently to be the other sex.

there's whole thread on this "lady"

Yes mother isn't the best analogy for me to have used, although i did mean it in all its forms, to include anyone who has mothered, for however short a time, even in utero, or by other methods than birthing. I meant to say that wishing something (motherhood, or anything else) to be true can't make it magically appear, and I should have thought of a less ambigious concept. If I wanted to be seven foot six tall, desiring it wouldn't make it true, and saying "I need a seat with extra legroom, because i am unusually tall" would be greeted with disbelief, and i would be considered delusional. How is that any different to someone saying "I would like to be a woman"? Turning that into "therefore I am a woman" is delusional.

JABAP - "We do have that happening? People do claim to be female when what they themselves mean by the term is "I have an XX chromosome". That would be crazy if that is what they meant."

That awkward moment when JABAP realizes years later the lunacy of the transactivist line

Yes, my friend. We do have transwomen claiming they are female, even going as far as saying their penises are "female dicks".

Since there is no other way to be female but physically, since the definition of the word female is of the sex that can bear young or make eggs, they are also claiming to have XX chromosomes although they have XY chromosomes.

I am glad to see that you have finally come on the same page as the rest of us and sincerely hope that you will carry this moment of clarity with you going forward on FWR board

cote But it entirely depends on what the accepted definition of a mother is as to whether an adoptive mother is a mother or not. If the accepted definition of mother is "someone who has borne children" then an adoptive mother is not considered a mother.

The same is true in this case. The trans-lobby are challenging our definition of a woman and saying that is is wider than just "being female".

Yep. "Claire".

Jesus wept

Lynda! That is her?!!! And that will be on the crime stats as woman on man violence?

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.” Source: "Through the Looking Glass" Lewis Carroll.

How prescient of him in 1872.

An adoptive mother is still a mother - i.e. a female parent.

A transwoman is not a woman - i.e. an adult human female - because they are not female (= of the sex that can bear young or make eggs).

I don't know why that photo didn't load. Try again

Yes I agree Maryz.

^Or a person with XY chromosomes (= are male) claiming they have XX chromosomes (= are female). Not that they want XX chromosomes and want to be female, but that they actually are female. That is crazy, isn't it? So glad we never see that happening.

Oh wait...^

We do have that happening? People do claim to be female when what they themselves mean by the term is "I have an XX chromosome". That would be crazy if that is what they meant.

I suppose you have all seen Clare Derbyshire, the daughter who murdered her father?

I don't watch the news, I only listen to the radio (mainly Radio4). So all day yesterday, the news reports had as a lead story the terrible details of the daughter who murdered her poor father.

And then I happened to see her photo on the BBC website today.

If I was childless, I could say "I identify as a mother" but that wouldn't magically make it true, it wouldn't turn me into someone who has mothered a child.

Ah, but the argument is more nuanced than that. "Being a mother" is not a binary state, any more than being a woman is.
You can be a mother by giving birth to a child, by adopting a child, by losing a child in pregnancy, by raising a child, by fostering a child, by having a child by a surrogate....... it is not as simple as it initially sounds.

And, my understanding of trans-women identifying as women is similar. The belief is that "being a woman" is a complex and multi-faceted definition and that it can include people who are biologically male.

"The only necessary difference between a homosexual and a heterosexual might just be in the "being". Sure you might expect to "see" things, certain external manifestations that will allow you to correctly infer which person is which, but there are no guarantees of that."

Nobody expects to see external manifestations of who one is attracted to, which is what homosexuality is about.

If a male claims to be a woman, you bet there will need to be some external manifestations otherwise it's all in their head, no different than DS (6) claiming he is a cat.

He has been saying this for a while, meowing all over the house & wanting his belly scratched etc but funny enough I haven't given him a cat name & started feeding him cat food.

Me and dh were discussing the other day - his current 'monologue' is religion, whereas i'm discussing trans-sceptism. We realised that we are actually fighting against the same thing (and this may be ridiculously obvious to some!), laws being made and rights given based on thoughts and feelings rather than facts.

So, in a society that has already historically based its judicial system on religion, adding laws based on how some men 'feel' isnt a massive leap.

Hennifer, I completely agree that Anna Lee is a human and therefore worthy of the same respect due to all human beings. I, and everyone else on this thread I'd assume understands and accepts Anna's humanity. I would bet my house on the fact that everyone on this thread would abhor violence or discrimination being perpetrated toward Anna, or indeed any trans person.

What we don't have to do is validate Anna's wish to be seen as being a woman. They aren't a woman, they are a MtT or transwoman. And, in this case, they are a transwoman who wishes to not only appropriate women's experiences, but also to be seen as representing women students and women's concerns.

"A white person claiming to have black skin would be like a person with a XX chromosome saying that they have an XY chromosome. Not that they want one but already actually have one."

Or a person with XY chromosomes (= are male) claiming they have XX chromosomes (= are female). Not that they want XX chromosomes and want to be female, but that they actually are female. That is crazy, isn't it? So glad we never see that happening.

Oh wait...

And japab, not all people who have black heritage have black skin. What nonsense.

I've been catching up on posts and linbjs etc today

It occurs to me that SN is very disparaging and dismissive of white feminists and white feminism. It is hugely inappropriate then that she is involved in representing NUS women at a national level...who are over whelmingly white

I agree Iamwhateveryousayiam. Because japab has stated that I am supposed to reliquish my safe women-only spaces, my daughters' and my mother's safe spaces, on an IDEA? And ideaology not unlike a religion? Rather than on a factual need ? I will fight tooth and nail to avoid that happening. I am not having my 11 year old daughter share a changing room with a man, who is in no demonstrable way any different from any other man, just because that man can say that he feels like a woman on that particular day. Ffs. Its like feminism never happened.

That thinking isn't really relevant, JAPAB, because there are no differences between homosexuals and heterosexuals physically

The question was put to people who are not trans-skeptic. If you believe that men and women are concepts referring entirely by physical differences in physical bodies then clearly for you there will be no difference between transwomen and men. But then you are "trans-skeptic".

So, Rachel Dolezal is black if she identifies as black?

That doesn't really make a lot of sense on first inspection. Black is a colour, and in "Black person" means that the person has black skin. A white person claiming to have black skin would be like a person with a XX chromosome saying that they have an XY chromosome. Not that they want one but already actually have one.