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Original poster

BoysToys

436 replies

SlowFJH · 13/02/2016 11:37

We have two boys and a girl (all now teenagers). My daughter was never into dolls and never really liked pink. She was into arts and crafts and loves knitting and sowing. The boys were completely stereotypical (plastic and wooden swords, guns, cars, diggers and tractors, soldiers etc).

We have good feminist friends (with three boys) who banned violent toys for boys. They always gave us the cat's bum face when they visited ours because their boys used to absolutely love playing with my sons' swords and shields. When we went out it for a walk, every stick they found was a gun - despite their parents vocal disapproval.

My friend's boys (now all strapping teenage lads) joke about how their parents banned them from having the toys they always wanted.

We definitely saw differences in toy preferences very early on. My daughter had zero interest in wheeled toys (despite my efforts) but both boys were fascinated by them virtually from day one.

I know my experience is not scientific. But there were some studies several years ago using baby apes (who obviously had not been conditioned by human systems or been exposed to advertising etc). Baby male apes showed a clear preference for mechanical toys over plush toys.

www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-prefer-boys-toys/

I'd love to hear others views on this topic... social conditioning versus biological predispositions.

OP posts:
KatharinaRosalie · 20/02/2016 14:15

Social conditioning 'may' play a role? Considering that we start treating boys and girls differently even before they are born, I would say it's a bit more than that.

There are countless stories just here on MN of kids coming home after starting school or nursery and stating they can't play with certain toys any more, or they need a new lunchbox, as the current one is for the other gender. Kids are born to like Transformers/Frozen. Peer pressure is an amazing force though.

Lweji · 20/02/2016 14:13

You've definitely lost me with your last posts.

Anything else I could say I've already said it.

MyCrispBag · 20/02/2016 14:13

SlowFJH

What are you talking about?

Original poster
SlowFJH · 20/02/2016 14:09

MyCrispBag
The differences between genetic boys and genetic girls are not a matter of opinion. They are a biological and physiological fact.

OP posts:
Original poster
SlowFJH · 20/02/2016 14:06

Sheeeesh kebab!
And we were doing so well.. sharing studies, conversing civily. Can we resume that tone please?

OP posts:
Original poster
SlowFJH · 20/02/2016 14:03

LWEJI
Let's keep it civil please and stick to the facts. You know I have never claimed or stated that the genes of the Y chromosome code for liking guns.

OP posts:
MyCrispBag · 20/02/2016 14:03

SlowFJH

I was interested in the posters opinion, which was why I quoted them.

Lweji · 20/02/2016 14:01
Hmm Personal attacks?
Original poster
SlowFJH · 20/02/2016 13:58

JW35

It's entirely up to you how you choose to identify yourself. Do not be goaded or bullied by the personal attacks you'll get here.

OP posts:
Lweji · 20/02/2016 13:57

I wasn't aware that the tiny gene in the Y chromosome coded for liking guns.

It seems many women also carry it, after all.

Original poster
SlowFJH · 20/02/2016 13:55

MyCrispBag
Girls and boys are fundamentally different...In what way?

Genetic girls have two X chromosomes.

Genetic boys have one X and one Y chromosome.

OP posts:
Lweji · 20/02/2016 13:54

Thank you for stating from the beginning that you're not a feminist. We now know you don't think men and women deserve equal opportunities and rights. :)

And btw: averages and distributions, people. You should look those up.

Original poster
SlowFJH · 20/02/2016 13:52

JW35
THANK YOU for your contribution, Be prepared for a reaction however to your words "I'm not a feminist but..It might not be pleasant Smile

OP posts:
MyCrispBag · 20/02/2016 13:49

Girls and boys are fundamentally different

In what way?

Original poster
SlowFJH · 20/02/2016 13:47

Muttaburrasaurus
[You] obviously have a pretty fixed idea that gender stereotypes have a significant innate component regardless of the evidence

Not sure I would use the term stereotype. However the fact that violence and violent crime for example is a predominately male problem in every culture and throughout history is pretty compelling evidence. Part of the hypothallamus is twice as large in men than it is in women and it is studded with receptors for testosterone which is 10 times more plentiful in the bloodstream of men than women. While there is a lot nervousness about "blaming" violence on one hormone, there is a lot of evidence to show that testosterone prepares boys and men for challenges of dominance, take more risks and compete more aggressively.

Girls with Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia tend to display preferences for toys which are typically classed as "for boys".

When people suffer particular types of brain injury, it can often have a very dramatic impact on their personality and behaviour e.g. previously placid people become foul mouthed and irritable.

Studies of adoptees suggest a substantial heritability of aggressive tendencies.

Men (having only one X chromosome and therefore no back up), are more at risk if their gene for producing the enzyme Monoamine Oxidase-A is mutated. This enzyme prevents the build up of several neurotransmitters in the brain. Men with a mutation in this particular gene are far more prone to violent outbursts. I think I read once that a substantial proportion of prisoners on death row have this mutation.

To me this is all evidence that at least some (but by no means all) aspects of our psychology are heavily influenced by differences which are innate rather than 100% purely social constructs.

OP posts:
Jw35 · 20/02/2016 13:45

I'm not a feminist but interesting thread! I worked in an after school and holiday club for 3 years (as well as lots of other childcare experiences and 2 children of my own) and ime boys tend to play football, fighting games, Lego, cars and play station games and girls prefer dolls, games involving teachers or princesses, dress up and crafts. Board games were about 50/50.

Girls and boys are fundamentally different so tend to like different things. It's that simple I think. Social conditioning may be a factor but I think child's play is pretty child led mostly. Like the op says, if you don't provide guns boys will pick up sticks and use those! There are some exceptions as with anything.

MyCrispBag · 20/02/2016 13:14

The more dogmatic view came from my friend who made dolls available to her sons but adamantly refused to let them have toy guns, soldiers and swords.

Sounds like me. One of mine wanted the guns and the dolls. He is completely typical in his interests now.

My oldest loved dolls too but they were called "action figures" therefore didn't count for some reason.

whatdoIget · 20/02/2016 12:30

It's not dogmatic to be anti-violence!
It's just being a normal human being.

Muttaburrasaurus · 20/02/2016 12:27

Slow you don't seem to have much understanding of what can and can't be reasonably suggested by particular bits of data and obviously have a pretty fixed idea that gender stereotypes have a significant innate component regardless of the evidence.
We clearly aren't going to convince you and you clearly aren't going to persude us.

Lweji · 20/02/2016 11:46

The more dogmatic view came from my friend who made dolls available to her sons but adamantly refused to let them have toy guns, soldiers and swords.
But surely that was due to their views on normalisation of guns and violence. And making available is fine. It's not forcing.

I've made available all sorts of toys to ds, as I would to a girl.
Not sure how that falls under the dogmatic scope.
Only the guns, but that is beyond the gender divide. (I used to play cops and robbers as a child anyway)

Original poster
SlowFJH · 20/02/2016 11:01

TheyDontKnow
I agree the term "hardwired" can be unhelpful. We also have freedom to make choices and we are influenced by our surroundings. As mentioned earlier, there is a lot more than genetics at play.

I have never heard a scientists say "Therefore we shouldn't offer them equally to girls." That sounds like a misrepresentation. The more dogmatic view (about what toys should / should not be offered to children) that I have encountered personally actually came from my dear friend (mentioned in OP) who made dolls available to her sons (they all declined) but adamantly refused to let them have toy guns, soldiers and swords.

OP posts:
Lweji · 20/02/2016 10:45

That little gene in the Y chromosome can make a big difference on what is expressed or not.

BUT... there is nothing that is completely binary between men and women, except production of gametes and for the most part the existence of sexual organs, which are mutually exclusive.
The rest is just a game of averages and distributions.
We can find differences, sometimes, but this will tell us very little about individuals. If anything at all.
For example, even if men are stronger on average and the strongest man is stronger than the strongest woman, it doesn't mean that the strongest woman can't be just as useful as a man in the middle of the strongest men.

Original poster
SlowFJH · 20/02/2016 10:39

ItAllBeFine

Not sure I fully understand your question or the premise behind it. Different does not mean better. Both female and male offsping inherit from the father and mother to end up with their XX and XY chromosomes. So in this respect, the daughter also inherits half of her genetic "femaleness" from the father as well as the mother

Could you think of a trait that is not inherited by female offspring but is by males?

If they are both heterosexual, what the male offspring finds sexually attractive could fall into that category. The father would have more in common with his son with regard to what they both found sexually attractive and less in common with his daughter.

OP posts:
Lweji · 20/02/2016 10:36

But then you went straight to the wrong conclusion, Slow. Or at least a big jump that would be totally unsupported by the actual study you proposed.

Theydontknowweknowtheyknow · 20/02/2016 10:33

"If females brains have evolved differently to mens, then it follows that men who are good at things because their brains have evolved to be good at it, cannot pass those evolutionary advantages on to their female offspring, because their brains are "wired" differently."

The general rule is that unless a trait is maladaptive it is passed on cross gender. Which is why men have nipples. They're redundant but not harmful.