BoysToys

Lweji
A quick saliva test is all you need to show that the winning side on a game of rugby has their testosterone levels go up and the losing side's go down. So I wouldn't be surprised.

I could tell when my sons seemed to be craving rough and tumble play.

Sorry ThatsToast not ThatStoat

ThatStoat

I was prompted to start this topic because my good friends three sons visited us recently. They remarked how much they enjoyed playing with the toys at our house. All three of them said that with their own children they probably wouldn't "ban" certain toys (as their parents had done) but rather let the child make up his or her own mind.

I tend to agree with this (as long as the toy is safe). Just wondered what others thought.

Sorry that should say does NOT automatically make them more violent

The cause and effect point is really interesting. I was not aware that even winning a game of chess causes an increase in testosterone. I thought it was only physical games that did this.I am happy about this!!

The article says that the body produces more testosterone in certain situations. So we can't be 100% be sure as to what is cause and what is effect.

Also, simply injecting testosterone into a person does automatically make them violent. I'm not surprised by that.

Very interesting point at the end though.

McAndrew's work demonstrated that one surefire way to raise a man's testosterone level is to allow him to handle a gun

Could this explain why my friends boys were so keen to play with the toys (swords and guns) that they were denied at home?

I did read it. I'm sorry I didn't quote from it immediately. The article is saying "it's complicated" I agree. Its not denying that testosterone has a role in behaviour

Partialderivative
That's an interesting article. Here are a couple of direct quotes from it..

Castration experiments demonstrate that testosterone is necessary for violence

Regardless of their gender the most violent prisoners have higher levels of testosterone than their less violent peers

From what we can tell now, testosterone is generated to prepare the body to respond to competition and/or challenges to one's status

ShowMeTheWonder

plenty of girls want to play cars too and you aren't going to stop them, nor should you

When / where have I suggested that?

Read the OP. We went with whatever preferences our children had without trying to impose anything on them. Personally, I would have been delighted if my daughter had been into cars as we might have had a few more years of fun with the bloody expensive Scalextric set.

By contrast, it was my very good friends that decided to "ban" their children from playing with certain toys. Not us.

The debate about hormones has come up because some posters including Vashta and others who have stated there are no innate differences between boys and girls

Innate means "existing at the time of birth". By the very fact you can say "this is a boy and this is a girl" would suggest that there are some pretty basic differences which exist at birth. Genetic boys have an X chromosome (from mum) and a Y chromosome (from dad). Genetic girls have two X chromosomes (from mum and dad). That's a pretty fundamental innate difference that is present at the moment of conception. The XY chromosome means that testosterone is produced just weeks into gestation eventually resulting in the development of the male foetus.

As well as physical effects, testosterone is known to affect behaviour. That's why (and the only reason why) castration in animals was brought up in this conversation. Some people seem to be "Testosterone Deniers" - but the evidence of castration in animals before maturity suggests that this hormone plays a pretty significant role in behaviour as well as physiology.

Otherwise why do it (other than as a contraceptive procedure)?

PalmerViolet thinks it's to improve meat yield. If so, why castrate male kittens, puppies and ponies?

Aside from controlling reproduction, the procedure also means the animal develops differently in terms of behaviour. A capon behaves differently to a cockerel. The biggest differences are typically associated with aggression, competitiveness and territorial defence.

In addition to marketing, TV, family pressure, traditions, peer group chastisement and the patriarchy (none of which I am denying), I believe basic biology, physiology and endocrinology could also be playing a part.

So I'm saying its probably a bit of both (nature and nurture). Not sure why that is so contentious.

Caroldecker
I was wondering when the ad hominem attacks would really get going.

In answer to your comment "What that means to 3 year children I will leave your obvious imbecility to contemplate"

Here's what my imbecility lesfs me to contemplate. I believe that, as in most situations, both nature and nurture probably play a role in toy preferences.

We cannot discount the power and impact of social norms, family influences, peer group chastisement, marketing, TV advertising and other factors which influence what type of toys are child may or not prefer.

I also contend that there may be innate factors at play - such as genetic and hormonal differences.

We know that male foetuses start to produce testosterone soon after conception. Testosterone levels in boys are generally higher than in girls (of course there are exceptions). At puberty testosterone levels increase significantly. The primary effect of this is physical (growth spurt, increased muscle mass, voice breaking, facial hair etc).

As well as physical effects, testosterone is known also to affect behaviour. In most mammals it is associated with increased aggression, competitiveness and dominating behaviour.

We do not (and should not) castrate human beings. However we know from castrating animals that e.g. a bullock will be less aggressive and less likely to charge than a bull. A castrated dog will be less likely to fight another male dog than a intact dog. A geldling is easier to ride and control than a stallion.

Testosterone affects behaviour.

Behaviour might include toy preferences.

Scallops
You voluntarily shared that you had a degree in Physiology. I had asked Geeka about her degree. But you very kindly shared your credentials. Now you're saying you don't remember much and want to talk about swim bladders on fish.

Please feel free to start a thread on that topic. I am not sure of the relevance to toys for human children.

I think it is relevant to discuss our closer evolutionary relatives (ie mammals) because we have lots of evidence as to what castration does to behaviour.

PalmerViolet
How much cat meat do we get through in this country ? Is that why so many catlovers have their tom cats castrated? So that they produce more meat?

Or do you think there could be other reasons?