Opinions on sex - bear with me

People put out the rubbish or endure their spouse foisting another child on them or don't complain when their spouse is awful to them all the time to prevent a divorce. It is up to each spouse to decide if they will have sex they might not be in the mood for if that keeps the other partner happy. That is totally different from rape.

What I'm getting from your post Toffee is that it's understandable and even admirable for a woman to have sex she doesn't want in order to prevent divorce? Is that right?

I think it is easy to see things as that black and white when life is all sorts of shades of grey.

However saying that on an Internet forum tends to be misinterpreted as a woman should put up with being abused.

Every decision made good or bad has an impact on the people around you. The people around you will have a reaction good, bad or otherwise. In a world where divorce and deal breakers are acceptable that reaction may be to walk away. That decision in turn may impact the people around you. That's real life.

Put that into a context where divorce will impact on your children, maybe causing long term financial hardship maybe meaning that your children have to deal solo with the behaviour you are walking away from, it can be far harder to work out what your deal breakers should and shouldn't be especially with regards to sex.

Life isn't black and white. It's isn't always leave the bastard but it isn't always stay, put up and shut up either.

Itll you said: 'What's being repeatedly pointed out is that if you do not want sex then the cost of that may well be the end of the relationship. So in that context she may choose to have sex.'

Why would she choose to have sex she doesn't want? Would you advise a daughter to have sex in order to prevent a relationship ending?

LogicalThinking, I don't think it's fair to expect someone to tell you something so personal before even a first date. You would really be annoyed at going for ONE drink that doesn't lead to sex at some point?

I would never engage in rape apology. Also people date in different ways. I suspect most of us have conversations with someone and emails before we meet them so tend to find out a bit about them including if they are after a sexual relationship. Others will have one text and then meet (not wise) and of course I am not saying that if you do that you are giving some kind of consent to sex. of course not. However on the broader topic of do people rightly expect sex in their close personal relationship(s) the answer is obviously yes. However just because you have an expectation of it doesn't mean you can force it on anyone. No way.

I'm not single and barring some catastrophic event, not ever likely to be. Unsurprisingly I have never been on a dating site.

If I were to be in that situation I doubt very much whether I would put my sexual desires on my profile or for that matter bring the subject up on the first or even second date.

However, if I purely wanted companionship I think I would try and make that evident.
Ergo, I suppose by a process of elimination the face I hadn't indicated a purely platonic relationship suggests I would expect it to become sexual at some some stage

Its a minefield. I think would just get a couple of cats instead.

don't con a potential lover to attend a first date if you never intend the relationship to get sexual in the future as the implication (unless it's save yourself for marriage.com or asexuals anonymous.com) is if you want a relationship you will be wanting sex to form part of that.

Did you actually read the article? I only ask because, given the subject matter of it, what you have put there sounds like rape apology.

Gwen I would want that information before I went on the date. If it was through a dating site, I would expect that to be a key piece of information shared on the initial correspondence.
It would be as fundamental as knowing if someone was only into dogging or bdsm or knowing someone's age and gender.

These are women of all ages and backgrounds, not self identifying feminists. I think you need to lower your expectations.
So it's ok for women who aren't self identifying feminists to slut and prude shame and it's pointless trying to challenge that?

"don't con a potential lover to attend a first date if you never intend the relationship to get sexual in the future"

Hmm. Wouldn't such a discussion take place on the first date rather than before it. The first date is just for people to get to know each other isn't it? You're not making a promise to become someone's lover with one date.

These are women of all ages and backgrounds, not self identifying feminists. I think you need to lower your expectations.

What does this mean Posie?

Most men always want sex but that doesn't mean that most expect it on a first date or demand it. It's hardly rocket science to say it. Most women on dating sites seek a sexual relationship too. I don't think it's that unusual.

It is certainly not my experience that all men on dating sites expect sex on a first date. Obviously some sites that might be the case but not most.

Like most things good communication is normally the answer - don't con a potential lover to attend a first date if you never intend the relationship to get sexual in the future as the implication (unless it's save yourself for marriage.com or asexuals anonymous.com) is if you want a relationship you will be wanting sex to form part of that.

Yikes Deo, that reminds me of an Indy article from this morning. All the comments were from men saying that if you go on dates with men from dating sites, you must expect that he will want sex. And take it if it's not offered. I know that's not what you're saying, but it resonated for whatever reason.

The comments have since been removed, presumably because not even the Indy can deal with wall to wall rape apologism.

Indy Article

I remember my last boyfriend telling me about one first date he had with a woman ... whe she said she was keen on talking but never did any of that other stuff any more he knew they would not quite be compatible.....

As long as people do make it clear where they stand then it's all fine but most most people who are dating tend to be up for sex and expect it.

"PosieReturningParker Mon 08-Feb-16 17:33:16

My mother is newly single after a forty year marriage, many many people on dating sites are looking for companions, there's no presumption of sexual desire or ability. These are conversations people have to have to draw boundaries."

These are women of all ages and backgrounds, not self identifying feminists. I think you need to lower your expectations.

I don't expect a genderless response, but I would like to see a lot less slut and prude shaming.
And I would love to see more couples have sex lives that are pleasurable to both of them.

There was a thread recently about a woman who'd been on 8 dates with a man who hadn't kissed her or held hands yet. The consensus was 'dump the bastard'. I think there'd been a bit more sympathy if the person wanting to take it slowly was the woman.

This is a predominantly female forum, you cannot expect a completely genderless response to any problem from everyone. There will be many posters who would answer the same regardless of gender, some who won't. I don't think you can then accuse MN as a homogenous group to be celebrated or criticised.

I think there are perhaps four positions on this general issue, which blur into each other...

Position A. I want to keep on calling women sluts or frigid. I think these are useful words for women who deviate from the norm and I don't think normal men have long term relationships with sluts or frigid women.

Position B. I don't want to call sluts and frigid women those names to their face, but I still think they are really weird, and assume that normal women don't behave like that in or out of relationships. I think we should still marginalise sluts or frigid women, or whatever PC people now want me to call them.

Position C. I accept that behaviour judged as sluttish or frigid exists, and some of it I don't approve of and I want to critique why women do it by looking at 'society.'

Position D. I don't mind what kind of sex people are or are not having, or how often, as long as they're able to communicate and show kindness to the people in their lives.

Dervel, the easiest way to do that would be to go to a website on asexual awareness and read up on the differences they experience.

Unless you are actually yourself dating an asexual person, or are asexual, are there any practical reasons why you need to know the difference?

Of course some couples are happy to have a sexless relationship, but they don't end up posting on MN complaining about the lack of sex or the type of sex they are having with their partner, so it's pretty irrelevant to this entire discussion.
The thread is about the different attitudes to men and women when posting about sexual problems in their relationship.

HelpfulChap, my DH has always bought be flowers at random times for no reason other than to tell me he loves me. I have always appreciated it and it's helped to maintain the closeness in our relationship.

it'll

I'm not sure whether you're joking. I'm sure you're not really saying that your definition of something is the only plausible definition. But I can't really interpret it any other way.

My idea of dating is a pre cursor to sex, at some point, but I accept it isn't everybody's.

I too would like to nail down the precise difference between a close friendship or even familial relationship and a sexless loving relationship?

I also appear to have a different definition of "dating" then, not having a good day :)