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Original poster

Opinions on sex - bear with me

443 replies

Thurlow · 06/02/2016 19:59

A couple of threads on MN over the past few weeks have got me thinking seriously about some (or maybe just some MNs) opinions relating to sex. This isn't meant to be a TAAT or an attack on their opinions. But something about some of the opinions aired, or perhaps more of a general belief, has got me quite confused.

One was the airing, by several posters/people, of the opinion that any woman who says she enjoys partaking in a particular sex act is merely a "cool girl". In essence, they can't actually really enjoy it - they only think they do because porn and/or men have convinced them that they do. It struck me as... some women believing that other women cannot, in some way, be trusted to explore their own sexuality. This is hardly a completely weird sex act we're talking about. But there seem to be women who believe any woman who enjoys certain sexual acts - anal, facials etc - cannot possibly be doing it because they genuinely enjoy it, for whatever reason (physical, emotional i.e. submission etc).

Another was a very heated debate - that I was tempted to post this on, but thought a new thread on this board might be better - as regards situations where women don't feel like having sex with their partner. Now I'm not in any way advocating that anyone should ever have to engage in any form of sexual activity if they don't want to. No way. No one ever should.

But what struck me was that for almost all people in relationships, sex is one of the main things that differentiates your romantic relationship from a very close platonic relationship. For most people in a monogamous relationship, sex is the one thing you do only with your partner - whereas many people may also be as emotionally close to a friend or family member. Sex is also seen by many people as the real Big One when it comes to infidelity. Your partner having sex with someone else is generally unforgivable. It's one of the worst things anyone can do to anyone else. Equally, everyone hopes that their partner finds them attractive and wishes to have sex with them. Someone being told that they are no longer attractive to their partner is an equally terrible thing within a relationship.

Yet on this thread about not having sex when you feel like, there was a very strong feeling from many posters that a husband (in this scenario) who asks his wife for sex, who attempts to initiate sex, is being unreasonably demanding. Completely unreasonably demanding. A sex pest, to some posters. That it is so out of order for a husband to fancy the idea of having sex with his wife. There was discussion of "pawing" in relation to a man making moves on a woman. (I will stress I completely agree with the general sentiment that if you're knackered after being with kids all day, you should completely be able to say "nope, too tired", and also that any respectful partner will just accept that). He would be totally out of order for making any kind of move towards physical intimacy. Hugging, touching, attempting to kiss, things that are surely what most people do to show affection and perhaps start to initiate sex, were just "pawing" and were demanding.

I know I'm waffling but I'm also trying to work out for myself what many of these opinions made me feel.

So - if we hope the person that we have chosen to build our life together with finds us sexually attractive, and wants to be intimate with us in a physical way, because physical and sexual intimacy is one of the main things that differentiates a partnership from a friendship... Why do many women see it as wrong that a man might hope to have sex with his wife? (Leaving aside for a brief moment men who don't take no for an answer). Why is it so wrong that a man might touch a woman, hug or kiss in an attempt to see whether their partner might like to have sex?

And why do some women seem to believe (again, just judging by comments) that any man who would like to have sex is, essentially a sex pest? As if women don't feel like that too? Which tied in, in my mind, with that whole "cool girl" concept in relation to women liking anal sex, for example.

I'm not sure I've explained this properly but I've come away from MN over the past few weeks feeling that a lot of women don't seem to agree with the simple idea that both men and women have libidos and sexual tastes: men just want to "have sex", rather than be intimate with their partner; and women just put up with it when they feel they ought too, and should have a liking for anything other than "making love".

Does that make sense to anyone? Has anyone else felt like this?

OP posts:
TheSparrowhawk · 08/02/2016 13:10

Is that the guy who leave semen-filled tissues on the bedside table?

itllallbefine · 08/02/2016 13:03

An example of what the OP refers to can be found right now on the relationships forum. Without copying and pasting, this gist of it is this :

A man does not seem to want sex with his wife, and has stated that he feels unattractive and is stressed out at work, has been painted as a hopeless loser, an inveterate wanker and someone who is totally unsuitable for the poster to consider being in any sort of a long term relationship with.

Perhaps you could head over there and point out that it is probably just the "ebb and flow" and that you hope that OP does not pester her husband or make him feel under any pressure to have sex with her posie ?

There have been many threads over the years about how the response to a poster complaining about lack of sex is gendered.

PosieReturningParker · 08/02/2016 12:51

I think most sex lives have ebb and flow without notice or conversation because it's not conscious. Either partner has s right to a conversation about any aspect of their relationship.

LogicalThinking · 08/02/2016 12:17

Sex is a small part of really. Especially after the honeymoon period. It's a nice part imo yes but not essential
In your opinion. If your partner had different opinions then there will be problems. I have been happily married a very long time and the honeymoon period is well and truly gone, but I would be devastated if my DH decided he didn't want sex anymore. If it was for health reasons, I would be able to deal with that, but if he just didn't feel like having sex anymore, I don't know how I would deal with that. If it happened without any discussion at all, that would be very difficult to deal with and I feel it would indicate a much bigger problem in the relationship.

There's a lot more prude shaming than slut shaming on MN.
Even if that is true (which I am not convinced about), it doesn't make the slut shaming any more acceptable. Women who have little or no interest in sex don't get insulted in the way that 'sluts' do.
Just stop judging women on what they do and don't do in bed.
If a woman has little or no interest in sex, it is her right to refuse, but it is unrealistic that there wouldn't be a negative effect on her relationship if he wants more and she is unwilling to put in any effort to improving things.

'Some people think it's ok to withdraw intimacy without consent'
It's not consent that is needed, it's discussion. Everyone has the right to refuse whatever physical acts they choose, but it is unreasonable to change such a core part of a relationship without discussion with your partner. Most partners would find that very hurtful and they would feel rejected. And if you want the relationship to continue, it is unreasonable to just say 'tough shit' and expect your partner to be ok with that.

BertrandRussell · 08/02/2016 10:48

Nobody has to stay in any relationship ever.

DioneTheDiabolist · 08/02/2016 09:17

If the partner doesn't agree then the relationship is over. No one has to be intimate with anyone they don't want to. And no one has to stay in a relationship where the parameters have shifted so radically.

Gwenhwyfar · 08/02/2016 00:27

"Intimacy is much more important than sex. Especially when you are not having sex. No sex shouldn't mean no intimacy."

What do you mean by intimacy Dione? When people use the word in this sort of thread they're not usually talking about emotional closeness.

Gwenhwyfar · 08/02/2016 00:25

Thank God you've said that TheSparrowhawk. I was getting worried about what some people are saying on here.

TheSparrowhawk · 07/02/2016 23:36

'Some people think it's ok to withdraw intimacy without consent...' Wtf? Before I withdraw intimacy I have to get consent? What if my partner doesn't consent, do I then have to be intimate against my will?

DioneTheDiabolist · 07/02/2016 23:02

Intimacy is much more important than sex. Especially when you are not having sex. No sex shouldn't mean no intimacy.

almondpudding · 07/02/2016 23:01

I don't know which there is more of, but they both seem unnecessary.

I don't agree that a 'cool girl' is one who participates in certain sexual acts. A 'cool girl' is one who discusses her enjoyment of those acts outside of intimate situations to influence other people's opinion of her in matters unrelated to sex, or to cast others as lacking in comparison to herself.

Gwenhwyfar · 07/02/2016 22:51

"
We should all be more judgemental about women who have romantic relationships with no or little sex, and call them gatekeepers and controlling!"

There's a lot more prude shaming than slut shaming on MN.

Gwenhwyfar · 07/02/2016 22:51

"some people think that it is ok to withdraw from intimacy without consent"

Absolutely, you can withdraw from sex without consent. Nobody needs their partner's consent to refuse sex. If having sex is going to hurt you, you don't have to do it anyway because your partner hasn't consented to your saying no!

almondpudding · 07/02/2016 22:07

I agree itsbetter.

Although I also think that romantic feelings can wax and wane as well as sexual ones, and that's fine as long as you can still show each other care and respect.

itsbetterthanabox · 07/02/2016 21:58

'Why would someone who doesn't like having sex be in a relationship?'
There's much more to relationships than sex. Love, companionship, romance, comfort, intimacy.
Sex is a small part of really. Especially after the honeymoon period. It's a nice part imo yes but not essential and it wanes and waxes throughout a relationship.

DioneTheDiabolist · 07/02/2016 21:56

I am do not judge women or men for having or not having sex. Yet some people think that it is ok to withdraw from intimacy without consent or discussion and their partner should just suck it up.

almondpudding · 07/02/2016 21:36

It kind of seems that what the OP and various others are suggesting is...

It is really wrong to judge women who have sexual relationships we don't deem appropriately romantic (with facials, random sex partners, anal) and we should stop slut shaming such women.

We should all be more judgemental about women who have romantic relationships with no or little sex, and call them gatekeepers and controlling.

OP, what differentiates a romantic relationship from a non romantic one is the expression of romantic feeling. What differentiates a sexual relationship from a non sexual one is sex. Sometimes sex and romance go together, sometimes not.

Moob · 07/02/2016 21:36

"why would someone who doesn't like having sex be in a relationship in the first place ?"

East life, money, convenience, disability or illness.

itllallbefine · 07/02/2016 21:32

why would someone who doesn't like having sex be in a relationship in the first place ?

LogicalThinking · 07/02/2016 20:48

Sex and cleaning are different issues but effort to the relationship is common to both. Relationships run into problems where there is an imbalance of effort. Where one person can't be bothered or doesn't see why they do something because it's not important to them, then the relationship is going to run into problems.

Badgering and pestering aren't a solution to any problems in a relationship because they indicate there's a lack of respect and poor communication.

PosieReturningParker · 07/02/2016 20:31

I'm not sure why anyone is suggesting that sex is the same as cleaning.

An absence of sex may well cause issues and the demise of a relationship but they cannot be cured with one partner persuading the other to do it regardless how they feel.

LogicalThinking · 07/02/2016 20:27

Scallops my post about badgering and pestering being unhelpful was in response to a PP saying it shouldn't be seen as a solution to a sexless relationship.

Some people are lazy shits in various ways in their relationship. They leave tasks to the other person, they put no effort into doing anything for the other person. Some put absolutely no effort into their physical relationship because it's not something they are that fussed about. None of those behaviours are reasonable and all are likely to cause problems in the relationship if left not discussed.

PalmerViolet · 07/02/2016 20:21

Goodness Moob. Your opinions are scary.

PosieReturningParker · 07/02/2016 20:17

Picking up someone's socks who is too lazy is not the same as having sex under duress or a sense of duty.

Moob · 07/02/2016 20:14

"Let me clue you in here. Your wife nagging you because you're being puerile about your socks until you give in and pick them up is not a crime."

No it isn't, and she doesn't have to because I do it, deposits finding it pointless and annoying, because she sees it as a way of me showing I care.

In terms of the actual act of putting socks away (which is only one of many examples) vs having sex there is clearly a big difference.

In terms of things where you may feel you have to persuade someone to do something within a relationship to make you feel loved wanted and respected I would argue that a partner who doesn't willingly want to engage in and explore a sexual relationship is causing much more hurt to the other person than someone who doesn't want to partake in what they may perfectly legitimately deem to be pointless tasks that they are nagged into.

A wife complaint her husband won't do his share of housework for the good of their marriage or a husband complaint his wife won't make an effort in bed (which lets face it should be a pleasurable part of a lovin relationship for both) would be treated to very different responses on here but are the effects on the partner who feels hard done to and uncared for actually much different?