Young dependent male children in women's only spaces?

It's not about danger so much with MTT, honey, it's about discomfort.

So, honeybadger- are you saying that girls are wrong for not wanting to share changing rooms with boys?

I don't believe for a second that boys become sexual predators on their 9th bday, just like I don't believe the male changing rooms are full of adult sexual predators. I do know that for about the last 2&1/2 years, my 12yr old would feel very uncomfortable changing in front of boys age 8+. And that's neither unusual or a precious, ott reaction.

the MTT is being envisioned as a danger because he is biologically male. yet the 8yo child is safe in a roomful of biologially male strangers. that's the logic there.

i agree with pp and i said it earlier - this obsession with dividing small children into males and females with so much emphasis is the antithesis of feminism should be aiming for for me.

especially radical feminism.

But if women with older boys think mixed changing is appropriate, why do they not change in the mens? Is their comfort more important than younger female not relatives?

I do think though, that it needs these boys, and their mums, to campaign for appropriate changing, and to stop just using the womens.

Funnily enough, a female objecting to boys in a female space isnt taken seriously. Especially as it is other women taking older boys in, so why would other women disagree?

"one male child alone in an adult male space without his mother is fine. one MTT in a female changing space full of women is terrible though."

I am not following your logic here, Honey. In the first instance, the boy is changing with others of his biological sex (and the male changing rooms is a male space, not an adult male space). In the second, the MTT is of a different biological sex.

Totally agree with scallops that the solution is campaigning for family changing rooms (which also helps 8 year old girls swimming with their dads, of course) or possibly a staff presence in the male changing rooms.

"How about we do't fall for the divide-and-conquer shit, and campaign instead for unisex "changing villages" with lockable cubicles? Or the system at my nearest pool of women's, men's and family sections?"

This. I would add campaigning against male violence too as that is what is causing this dichotomy and men are largely absent from this discussion (apart from to make goady, passive aggressive remarks that aren't adding anything) and from the problems it causes in RL. They can walk away from this as with so much.

"But I'm getting increasingly angry on this thread to see that the entire edifice of male entitlement is being blamed on women - mothers - for being worried about keeping their children safe from male violence. And people are doing this in the name of feminism. It's about as sodding unfeminist as you can get in my books."

And this.

"but when push comes to shove I would prioritize the needs of a child regardless of sex over the needs of an able-bodied adult woman."

And the needs of the girls into whose space the boy is encroaching?

"For me, that means more men doing their share of the emotional labour and pulling their weight with the children and women expecting and demanding better of the men in their lives."

Just as an aside that's liberal feminism, not radical feminism (not that there's anything wrong with that I hasten to add).

"No not me. My son doesn't have ASD."

Many apologies- I mixed you up with another poster. So why did you say you wished you could send your child to the men's changing room but you can't?

Our nearest local pool is pretty grotty and definitely only has a women's and a men's cubicle free changing room each with uncubicled showers. There is a disabled toilet but not disabled changing room - it is actually part of DD's secondary school, open to the public outside school hours. We don't go there for family swimming any more - not due to the changing facilities specifically, just because it isn't a very nice pool and stinks of chlorine :(
There are no notices up about minimum ages and we haven't been there as a family since years before my older DS turned 8 - there were small boys in the women's (mine too) but I have no idea how old the eldest was.

We usually swim at a much larger leisure pool complex which is all cubicles - no specific disabled ones but big family ones - big enough for up to about 4 people to change. Only problem is that sometimes lone adults take them for their solo use... obviously they could be disabled, but probably not all of them, and solo indicates no helper...

The showers are gender segregated and open - no signs about age limits, only signs insisting you shower before entering the pool. My 8 yo male child goes through the male showers and my 5 yo male child (who is bizarrely afraid of showers, very specifically) comes through with my and DD, very often carried by DD as he will go under the shower if carried piggy back by her... I suppose he will probably grow out of it or consent to go with DS1 when he is a bit older - we are in Germany though and I don't think people would be as bothered by a male child walking through the showers here, although if there was a sign up about a rule somebody would take it upon them-self to police it, no matter what the rule :) )

Nit UK any more anyway. I have had problems taking a 5 yo male child into a women's changing room in the UK, where there were no unisex or family facilities - posted about that before. Was several years ago.

Dragonsdaughter, precious snowflakes????? for goodness sakes, if only the odd person or two had the slightest bloody idea!!!!! no sorry thats wrong a few of you have, just other people not so understanding.

I don't have a Ds so have never had this dilemma.

I can understand that some mums may worry that 8 or 9 is too young to send them I to the men's changing rooms on their own. The logical part of me says in a busy changing room it's very unlikely anything would happen.

But there are sometimes stories in the media. wasn't there a 14yo boy raped in the toilets in debenhams in Manchester a while ago? I certainly vividly remember an 11yo girl being raped in the toilets at a local national trust property near me nearly 30 years ago. One of the Drs I now work with treated this girl immediately after the incident so I know it's not just gossip.

I was swimming today. Unisex cubicles, a few family ones. On reflection I have never been in a cubicle free swimming pool in Scotland since having dcs, and have been in one elsewhere in UK. Are there loads of them in England?

Just to take a slightly different tack - remembering that we are talking about mothers (women) and their young dependant children here (no disputing pubescent males have no place in a women's changing room or toilet and trying not to be dragged into bothering with the poster who seems to think ONLY the child's sex matters, not that of the adults and must think adult men should be changing with their 8/9 yo daughters in women's changing room if their daughters need parental help, as she suggests that mothers should change in the men's with their sons... though what they do if they have children of both sexes is unclear)...

Why are we emphasising the malesness of children so heavily that some people are claiming 8 year old girls are embarrassed in front of 8 year old boys.

The PrincessTeacake started off by talking about radical feminists not wanting any young male children in women's spaces, but I find it weird that we want to put such a heavy focus on the gender of children in this case. If radical feminism is about getting to the real root of the problem rather than blaming individuals (in this case the mothers of dependant male children are clearly the ones under attack for theoretically potentially making some women or possibly same age female children uncomfortable) should we not be looking at why childhood has become so sexualised that we all think it is normal for 8 year old girls to be (according to some posters) potentially so embarrassed changing into swimwear in a public changing room with other women and female children and an 8 or 9 year old boy, that they would choose not to go swimming?

9 year olds are still changing in front of each other at school for PE but we are emphasising their sex and gender so heavily on this thread ... when they are still dependant children first, and male or female second (surely).

Everyone is in broad agreement that the smallest boys stay with their mothers in the women's, but I really don't get why people are so determined to be so inflexible about the rule being under 8s and think that 8 year old girls are going to be uncomfortable changing in front of 8 year old boys. If they are, we need to ask why? Not to blame the girls of course, but to question how this has happened on a wider level - to 8 year olds?

Maybe this is all linked to the increased incidence of early puberty etc... but maybe it has a lot more to do with social attitudes.

8 and 9 year olds are just children, or should be - children first and boy or girl children a distant second. An 8 year old boy and an 8 year old girl who don't know each other should surely be more comfortable in each other's presence than with adults they don't know of the same sex...

We have one disabled changing room at our local pool but otherwise its just the gender segregated changing rooms. No family rooms, no cubicles. No one seems to mind boys up to around 8 or 9 coming into the ladies but after that they go in the men's and it doesn't seem to be an issue at all. They learn how to change independently when they have swimming lessons with school so its not new for them.

Exactly Twoleftsocks that is the issue not us women punishing each other for doing the best with our kids. As I said earlier Centre Parcs manages with no issues so why can't public leisure facilities?

No not me. My son doesn't have ASD.

Thinking about this, the spot quiz could, instead of asking what age restrictions exist at your local pop, be asking does your local pool have adequate facilities for older children who can't yet be left to change unsupervised, be that unisex facilities or family and disabled changing rooms if segregated.

I'll start... Yes ours do, unisex throughout plus some larger cubicles and also a disabled changing room that leads straight to the poolside. Works great.

If its really a significant issue then what can be done about it? Contacting local councils, private firms, or larger public bodies? Would anyone actually be willing to do that?

You said he had suspected ASD.........

Because he isn't disabled.

Itisbetternow- why don't you want to use the changing room for disabled people with your son?

Caroldrcker I really shouldn't be bothered to answer that but next time a dad takes his 7/8 year old daughter swimming I'll tell him to pop into the ladies and get changed in there with his daughter. Same argument????

Legally as an adult straight female I'm not even sure if I'm allowed to get changed in the men's with my son and I certainly don't wish to see a load of old naked males bodies - will put me off my tea thanks.

Because men and boys Harv w right to a male only space too.

Those who are fine with older boys being in the ladies as 'they want to be with them', why do you not get changed with them in the mens?

(resists the use of special snowflakes)