Young dependent male children in women's only spaces?

I think 8 is an ideal cut off. Not least because you'll always get those who push the boundaries and continue past the guidelines. And re the maturity to change alone, I think plenty of boys are capable before then, 8 allows for those later to mature to catch up, or for a parent to suspect sn.

Regardless of whether it clashes with any entitlement some mothers feel is due them, the fact remains 9/10/11 year old girls do not wish to undress in front of boys in their peer group. That doesn't mean they are either sexualised, or their mothers aren't being empathic towards the mothers of sons.

Schwab, please stop using the phrase "man up" to describe the position of those who disagree with you. None of us have used it.

It's a horrible phrase and often used in a sexist fashion though you aren't doing so here. If you mean "grow up", please say that. Thanks.

At what age do children, of both sexes, become uncomfortable about changing in mixed groups? I'd think about at the time they move from infant to junior school - so seven.

My DC is too young but my own memory of 'increased awareness of difference' and of common practice, matches that.

I think the boy and boys who sexually harassed me were 11 or 12. Pre-pubescent. It's happened to someone else I know - and who talked about it. I don't believe it's uncommon.

And, thinking of my, perfectly nice, much younger brother, age 11-12 was 'peak dawning sexual awareness silliness' in terms of stealing my underwear, giggling with little friend about it etc.

12 is also about the age when boys become stronger than women.

Don't you think awareness - or rather acknowledgement - of the risks some men pose to boys and youths is new? 30 years ago boys would have been sent into the men's changing, loos etc without much thought wouldn't they?

I think that question is new and arises from greater awareness of the dangers posed by some men to children and teenagers.

I'd disagree with this. The whole reason we have sex segregated spaces is because men were aware of the dangers others of their sex posed to women and children.

How to get round it now that children are becoming hyper-sexualised earlier and earlier is new. And the only way round it is to either have age range specific changing rooms or family changing rooms for those like my family who had to stop using public baths because DS2 was physically incapable of sorting himself out when he had passed the age at which he was expected to be able to do so.

So my immediate view is that the issue should be framed as 'given that men's spaces may not be safe for boys and women's spaces are not appropriate for boys over the age of about 8 (because while my son is delightful and yours is very pleasant, boys over a certain age do start to see women sexually and some boys - those other ones whose parents we don't know - do leer at and actively harrass women), what spaces can be created for older boys and youths, to keep them safe?

I think that question is new and arises from greater awareness of the dangers posed by some men to children and teenagers.

The thing to do therefore is acknowledge and address that new and important question - not to impinge, thoughtlessly, unquestioningly, upon women's spaces instead.

But to go back to the OP, small children are small children and just fine.

And yes, I suspect there may be a view in certain small circles that mothers have in some way surrendered themselves to the patriarchy, so no can no longer have true or valuable thoughts or rights.

I was sexually assaulted by a teenage girl once- I was on my bike and she and her mates obviously thought it a hilarious joke to grab my bum as I was stopped at lights. A proper grab, touching my genitals through my clothes, not just pinching arse cheeks.

So I wouldn't put it past girls to sexually harass or make inappropriate comments either.

If your kid is 12, has not got pretty SEN issues, he should in the male change rooms. At some point you have to let them go .

I think ds was about 8 when he refused to go into ladies toilets and change rooms. There were times when I had to force the issue for his safety / my piece of mind. Many a day have I stood outide mens toilets calling to him.

Now at 11, he would be mortified at being there. At 12 No. These boys have hit puberty. That is a major cut off point for me.

That is awful lottie - these were surely not 8/9/ 10 year olds were they?

There is something wrong with society if children under 10 of either gender are so sexualised ... That is entire premis underlying the argument that 8 year olds need to man up and get out from under their mummy's skirts in case their presense makes girls the same age uncomfortable does imply the sexualisation of 8/9 year old children of both genders, and a deep discomfort within their own skin for the girls - for which of course the girls are not at all to be blamed, but society is...

As society can't be fixed quickly then of course changing villages are the solution. They are better anyway for all sorts of reasons.

Doesn't help the OP with her bigger, more unsettling debate over women's refuges, though I think both problems are rooted in sexualising children so young, way pre puberty, and passing the message on to them that they are their gender first and children/ members of their family second... (surely the retreats are a red herring as they are kind of holidays aren't they? They sound like adult women's spaces where any child but a babe in arms would be a distraction).

I've only read the first three pages but what seems to emerge is a strongly held view that adult men are dangerous and must be segregated from all children - and youths.

So, either we need changing rooms set up as 'men, youths, women & girls' or as 'men, women, family changing'. Or, all cubicled changing.

Personally, I have as an adult been sexually harassed (followed some distance while being talked to obscenely, leered at, bum grabbed) by pre-pubescent boys. It's awful, as it is intimidating, especially if more than one of them but you cannot lash out verbally or defend yourself in the same way you could with an adult man, as they're 'just a child'. Horrible, horrible, horrible. And I was in my late 20s, not an unworldly pubescent girl.

DrSeussRevived I don-'t even have this problem tbh, despite having an 8 year old boy :o We use a pool with a changing village and my 8 yo is very competent and now quite confident.

I just understand the problem as at 6 my son was so socially anxious I was beginning to think we would have to investigate ASD... he wouldn't get in a car with his beloved and well known to him grandparents to go to the Kindergarten "grandparents day" for example, because I was the one who should take him to Kindergarten and he just couldn't go there without me - he was big and strong and clung to the door frame and howled, and in the end I had to take him, which was embarrassing for all concerned including him as all the other kids were there with a grandparent or 2 or 3 or 4 but no parents ... At the same age he would not go into any public toilet (either gender) without me and if pushed to would run in and run out again claiming to have been, he was properly scared but the mens was worse because he is very sensitive to smell and they do tend to smell more, and be more unfamiliar as of course they are differnt to the women's which I had always (obviously) had to take him into when smaller.

Weirdly my son grew out of the anxiety - so I just do get why some parents would not be able to send a child without any kind of SN diagnosis into any unfamiliar big public changing room alone, even without any fear of male predators.

If your child has a diagnosed SN you can be a bit more confident insisting on access to disabled facilities, but what if you have no diagnosis just a mysteriously anxious/ disorganised/ immature kid who you know won't manage the male changing room totally alone?

A CRB checked male lifeguard in the changing room is a lovely idea but won't help the anxious/ disorganised/ clumsy/ possibly ASD or dyspraxic but also maybe just having an intense anxious phase or a bit immature kid who just isn't quite average as an 8 yo and needs a bit of space to grow up a bit before going it alone.

A bit of flexibility is sensible.

It should be the exception not the norm of course - it is taking the pee if there are lots of older looking boys in the womens.

Of course it cuts both ways and mothers who need to supervise their dependant male children should be aware of those around them and get the boy into a cubicle or a quiet corner and closely monitor him - but the rigid rule that 8 year old boys must "man up" or else their entire family (sisters too...) just need to take the hit and not go swimming is so intolerant and rigid and ends up punishing the mother - the woman - for being in a position where she is (whether at that point in time or always) solely responsible for a male child.

Or, Schwab, if there were a CRB checked lifeguard in the male changing room to keep an eye out (including for wandering off behaviour as well as more sinister things!) would that work for you?

Thank you for answering, Schwab.

"but it is a pity people can't be relied on to be sensible and empathetic"

That cuts both ways though with respect to being sensible and empathetic to girls.

I personally wouldn't be too fussed by an 8-10 year old boy in a communal changing space but could completely understand an 8-10 year old girl who was developing breasts might well be.

Changing at swimming also involves more exposed flesh than changing at school, where if 8-9 year olds (ie year 4 children) are changing together, girls can wear crop tops and pull on shorts under skirts etc if they feel self conscious, which isn't possible for swimming.

Those that have answered re separate changing at school have said year 4 or year 5 have been separated - so that means no 10 year olds are changing together at those schools.

Family changing rooms seem the only solution!

Bertrand "this obsession with dividing small children into males and females with so much emphasis is the antithesis of feminism should be aiming for for me" is absolutely not blaming girls for this - why on earth would you assume that? That is like suggesting that those who object to gendered toy aisles are blaming girls for liking pink sparkly tat ... It is blaming society for bringing things to this ridiculous stage.

DrSeuss I think 8 is fine as a guideline - it should be a guideline not a rule at 8 and it is the rigidity about it that is ridiculous, as it is still very young and firmly in the realm of childhood. As an absolute iron rule 10 does sound better, but it is a pity people can't be relied on to be sensible and empathetic (women of other women, because these are women who believe they need to supervise their dependent children) and make sensible decisions and not get up in arms if they think a male child might possibly by 8 not 7...

Our pool has a rule that children of 8 and above may swim unaccompanied if they can swim 25 meters - it isn't just about being an arbitrary age, but also a certain level of capability. Its the same for all areas of life. Just as it really isn't sensible to allow an immature 8 yo non swimmer into the main pool area unaccompanied no matter that the rules in some pools might say you can, in the same way not all 8 yos can get changed and showered sorted out and belongings put away and through to the right part of the pool complex alone - the same child might be able to at 9...

All swimming pools should have individual changing rooms that are unisex for individuals and family.

There's no way my husband would have taken our daughter into a men's changing room after the age of about three. Actually neither of us are communal undressers anyway and so we would NEVER have taken our children into places where they were expected to undress inform of anyone, or anyone in front of them.

For those who don't agree with 8 as a cut off, what age do you think it should be? 9? 10?

'this obsession with dividing small children into males and females with so much emphasis is the antithesis of what feminism should be aiming for for me' -

I thought feminism was about destroying gender stereotypes, not denying biological sexual differences.

And the informal poll; 1) 8y 2) 8y 3) don't know but dd (Y4) says that some girls in her class wear crop tops to feel more comfortable when running so possibly puberty isn't that far away for them.

I have 2 sons with Asd who have swam competativly all over the country - Yes if we were going somwhere new I rang ahead to just confirm facilities and yes on occasion when have gone a little earlier than the team if it looks like very limited changing. Such is life with disabilities it takes a bit more planning and thought on occasion. I would never prioritise my sons needs over a whole changing room of pre and pubecents girls at club or competition meetings. I wouldnt do it for casual family swimming either. I have a daughter who has had some issues with a male coach in changing rooms and also had remarks made about her developing body in a swim suit by boys of a similar age (then 9/10) at swimming meetings - she would give her sport if she had to change infront of similar aged boys and belive me she is well used to asd behaviour.

"don't get that at all from Honeybadger's posts Bertrand. Are you sure you're not putting your own construction on her words in an attempt to make her look bad so you win some kind of moral high ground"

Nope. She said- "this obsession with dividing small children into males and females with so much emphasis is the antithesis of feminism should be aiming for for me"- which seemed to be suggesting that.

Er.... it's not that easy just to 'use the disabled changing room'. There's often only one (which as often as not is also the disabled loo). And the amount of people who think that it should double as a family changing room is gobsmacking (and no, smiling sweetly as you leave doesn't make it okay). Not to mention that fact that very often people with disabilities will take much longer to get dry and dressed. In the mean time, a child with ASD who is expecting to go swimming may well be becoming more and more distressed.

Indeed, Cote.

"It's not about danger so much with MTT, honey, it's about discomfort."

Same with men. The vast majority of men are not rapists but we still have separate spaces for women.

I don't get that at all from Honeybadger's posts Bertrand. Are you sure you're not putting your own construction on her words in an attempt to make her look bad so you win some kind of moral high ground?

Carol... interesting idea. I can imagine the headlines the first time a woman is raped/assaulted in those circumstances. Especially given the comments on an Indy article today about rape and Tinder and Grindr.