Young dependent male children in women's only spaces?

I think 8 is a reasonable cut off, but can't see any way round the fact that this means that some boys may not always get to swim, if their mother makes the judgment that at that particular pool, or given their son's particular level of maturity, sending them into the male changing room alone isn't going to work or isn't safe. And a mother simply going into the male changing rooms instead isn't a solution either (I'm not sure how anyone could possibly think it is) because that's not respecting the space of e.g. teenage boys who might be acutely sensitive to the presence of even adult women.

A woman's discomfort with sending a vulnerable child of any sex into a particular environment without an adult is not something that should ever be minimized and dismissed as silly because someone else thinks the risk isn't that huge, any more than a woman's discomfort or judgement of risk should be dismissed in any other situation just because acknowledging it would create an inconvenient requirement for action.

Basically there is no solution, if you respect everyone's feelings then some young boys (even entirely safe, prepubescent, accompanied by a parent, young boys), and possibly their sisters who would have gone swimming that day too, will not get to swim and do the activities they'd otherwise get to do. This is a problem women face when they are in the role of caring for young dependent male children, even if they have girls too, and as such a perfectly valid subject for discussion amongst feminists. I'd hope that given that women are affected either way no one would just shrug their shoulders and say it's not their problem as they don't have sons. (That would be a bit too much like childfree feminists shrugging their shoulders and saying maternity issues aren't their problem.)

Everyone wins if there are more cubicles and family changing rooms - personally I would have been much more comfortable in changing rooms with no other girls, as well as no other boys. I felt at least as self-conscious and stressed around other girls (more so the older I got) as I would have done with boys. There will be girls and women of all ages not going swimming at all to avoid tiny communal changing rooms where everyone's in each other's space - they're just awful.

DrSeuss it worries me too, because she won't be the only girl to miss out. And this was a girl who had no hang ups about her body at all until boys at school started staring at her. The thing is, none of the other people changing would ever have been aware of her discomfort, she wouldn't have caused a scene, she wouldn't have complained, all she'd have done would be to leave, quietly, leaving the boys in her space.

lurked you clearly haven't read the thread - I don't have this problem and have sad as much repeatedly; I merely have experience from when my son was only 6 that allows me to empathise with women in this position, and a feeling that a society in which such young children are sexualised is wrong.

It just needs a bit of bloody common sense.

"So for her, if she walked into a communal changing room and saw boys of around 9 in there, she would not get changed, she would miss out on swimming."

This is what worries me.

"And for the orobably very few anxious '8' year olds its hopfully only for a year or so so hardly a major problem - ive never seen huge ques of 8/9/10 year olds outside the disabled facilities."

Upthread I believe that me mentioning the possibility of missing out on swimming for a year/only going when an older boy or adult male could come too/finding a solution such as asking staff members for a neutral place to get ready was akin to the treatment of women in Afghanistan!

Never had to wait an excessive time to use disabled/family facilities. Used a staff room once at a huge meet. And for the orobably very few anxious '8' year olds its hopfully only for a year or so so hardly a major problem - ive never seen huge ques of 8/9/10 year olds outside the disabled facilities.

I would think so, but I don't think there are currently enough disabled or family change facilities to cater for all the disabled adults and all older children with SN. My local pool only has one cubicle that isn't within a communal single sex room, which wouldn't be enough if there were 2 dcs who need help from a parent of the opposite sex in the same club/lesson.

The number of NT 8 year olds of either gender who are not capable of getting themselves dressed must be vanishingly small, though, surely?

I really do think the solution is for more family change facilities to be on offer.

I have 2dds, no ds, so can only give my opinion based on how it affects girls.

Dd1 started developing breasts at the end of year 4 (age 9). She became acutely uncomfortable changing for pe at school because they all got changed together til the end of year 5. That uncomfortableness was entirely because boys were staring at her while she changed. These were boys of 8 and 9, no older. And she was wearing underwear when changing for pe, that's not possible when going swimming. So for her, if she walked into a communal changing room and saw boys of around 9 in there, she would not get changed, she would miss out on swimming. Dd2 is only 5 so it's not an issue yet for her, BUT if dh takes her swimming she goes into the girls on her own rather than go in the boys. That's not possible for a lot of 5yos, because they just aren't capable yet, but by the age of 8 the majority of children can manage it.

There has to be a solution to the problem that keeps older boys who aren't yet capable of changing alone safe and happy, while not restricting girls like my DD who will not/cannot change in front of boys. Providing family cubicles or cubicles in a unisex village style room would allow for both sets of people to change in comfort. That's what we need to push for, rather than continue with a situation that makes one or other group of people uncomfortable.

Right, so because somebody elses child can't change alone, for whatever reason, the young girl should be put in the position of choosing between unwillingly exposing herself or staying away? Your attitude is basically 'I have this problem. The solution is to make it the problem of another person'.

Your ds may well be in the minority of nt 8yr olds genuinely not mature enough to change alone yet. (Rather than the pfb apron strings category which also exists). And it's absolutely fine for him not yet to be at that stage. But you don't seem to understand that your sons current level of independence isn't a problem you should be offloading onto young girls. It wouldn't bother me as an adult if your son was present while I changed. But as an adult woman, I don't generally feel comfortable stripping infront of random adult males. Entirely logical that a young girl, with a newly developing/ developed body would feel the same way about a boy in her age range.

Pure selfishness and entitlement to argue otherwise.

Its not convenience and choice lurked for some people - or at least only to the extent that going swimming or using public toilets at all is convenience and choice. If an 8 year old child of either gender is too anxious or disorganised or vulnerable to use another changing room, sometimes a distance away - that is not only to get changed but often to navigate their way, lock their belongings away, not drop their pants in a puddle and loose their socks, remember how to put the money into and to take the key out of the locker, go out through the right door, not bump into anyone or bother anyone inadvertently, alone, then the only choice their mother has is take that child with her into the changing room she uses or not go at all. If there are no family facilities and the only disabled facility is the disabled loo, its not much of a choice and not at all about convenience.

I'm not rigid on seperating some children from their parents to obey some arbitrary single sex rules. I am however extremely fixed in my opinion that my child, or anyone else's, should not be expected to expose their developing bodies against their wishes to boys in their age range for the convenience/ choice of another parent. Nor should the onus on avoiding that situation be placed on the female who is using a female space as intended.

Schwab, but the reason for saying "most 8 year olds can..." Is to show that the rule is in approx the right place. Most 6 year olds can't get themselves through a changing room alone so it wouldn't make sense to have that as the rule.

It's a balance between the age of physical self consciousness and the age of the ability to be a little independent in this way.

DrSeuss the contempt is there in society and in the "most 8 year olds should be able to... most can even earlier" type comments.

Of course it is equally difficult for some 8 year old girls. Of course most can do it (as can most boys) 8 is a good guide line but setting it in stone allowing no flexibility and saying those who can't cope have to either not go or demand to use disabled facilities they are not really entitled to use and which would not be sufficient for everyone if people without disabilities or diagnosed SN started using them, penalises some mothers, some girls, some boys...

That is kind of my point - why are we so rigid about separating such young children from their parents in order to obey arbitrary single sex rules.

I do get the "give them an inch and they'll take a mile" need to draw a line in the sand though, due to situations like the one Michah described. That's beyond my experience though - I've never seen anything like that happening.

vulnerable dependant child category* , for whatever reason

"that we expect 8 year old boys to take their responsibility as men and go off on their own without their mothers, when our 8/9/10 year old daughters and preschool boys stay with us because they are girls/ "little"... and and "big boys" can't stay with their mummies (again using the phase a little tongue in cheek, but it is there, in the attitude and the slight contempt for any 8 yo boy who doesn't confidently trot off to the men's and doesn't have diagnosed SN"

Where have you seen contempt on this thread? I've only seen concern about the impact on girls.

8 year old girls also need to go into the female changing rooms alone if they go swimming with their dads so not quite sure why you think it's more unfair on boys.

I am a mother of boys, BTW.

Michah well that's obviously an abuse of the set up and a case of idiots spoiling things for the rest of us - if everyone were sensible then the occasional mother who's boy still falls into the vulnerable dependant child could take him into the women's and, as I said, straight into a cubicle or quiet corner and supervise him closely and take him straight out to the pool.

It sounds as if lazy, entitled idiots are using the women's as general family changing at your pool. Obviously that is not right unless the men's is the same and both are fully cubicles - in which case they are no longer men's and women's changing but 2 unisex, cubicled, changing areas.

"mothers who need to supervise their dependant male children should be aware of those around them and get the boy into a cubicle or a quiet corner and closely monitor him"

I wish. IME the boys are changed bang in the middle of the communal area, and quite often are allowed to run around, often naked. Usually with the mothers looking on in that "what can you do, boys will be boys" manner.

Like I said, the problem I am having now is not aimed at small boys, but that boundaries have been pushed and pushed, so quite frequently there are more boys being changed than girls, and increasingly 9/10/11 boys being taken in, boys being left completely unsupervised, and boys being taken in who are not even getting changed. Boys being sent in alone to use the showers, when there are only curtains for privacy. Entire families using the women's as a short cut to the pool.

This is despite there being alternative changing. The women's is just closer to the pool, so it's either laziness, or unfamiliarity with the centre, easily fixed by asking a member of staff.

The mothers of these boys need to realise that they are making girls uncomfortable, and that they feel they can't use their own changing facilities. Not just use the girls because that's what they want to do, who cares if they upset those who are supposed to be using it.

DrSeuss not in the house, that would be weird, just as it would be weird for her to randomly undress infront of an adult female friend of mine... but she happily gets changed alfresco at the open air pool we go to, as do lots of teens...

DrSeuss I was somewhat playing devils advocate with the phrase "man up" - there is a degree of shaming of boys who do not go off on their own to the men's while their sisters and mothers and younger brothers go together to the women's. I think there is more tolerance of girls not wanting to go into a room full of adult and teen and older child strangers alone... I agree its a nasty phrase, I don't use it in real life.

I think its part of the problem - that we expect 8 year old boys to take their responsibility as men and go off on their own without their mothers, when our 8/9/10 year old daughters and preschool boys stay with us because they are girls/ "little"... and and "big boys" can't stay with their mummies (again using the phase a little tongue in cheek, but it is there, in the attitude and the slight contempt for any 8 yo boy who doesn't confidently trot off to the men's and doesn't have diagnosed SN.

Schwab, would your DD undress in front of a friend of your DS? I think family is a bit different.

Don't you think awareness - or rather acknowledgement - of the risks some men pose to boys and youths is new? 30 years ago boys would have been sent into the men's changing, loos etc without much thought wouldn't they?

No, I really don't think so. And no, 30 years ago boys wouldn't have been sent into the men's without thought. Well, not in my experience anyway.

*mothers not bothers

lottie your posts are interesting (in a good way, I have had a glass of wine - I am not being sarcastic).

I am surprised at your suggestion of 7 as the age at which children become uncomfortable changing in front of each other - I have a 10.5 year old girl who is happy changing in front of her 8.5 year old brother (she doesn't have to, she has her own room nowhere near his due to the layout of our house, but wanders around the entire first floor of our house in the process of getting dressed and undressed, as does he. She also still occasionally baths with him when they want to play Playbobile in the bath... her suggestion, though I find it slightly sad that she recently asked him to promise not to tell his friends they do that - met by a blank look from him and a question about why he would talk about being in the bath to his friends...)

11 is very different than 8/9 - I think 8 is a good guideline but it is strange and artificial and penalises some bothers to get so hung up on that precise birthday and not have a bit of sensible flexibility. 8 is still very young... 11 is an age when puberty might have started for boys (a boy going through puberty at 8 would be a medical problem, not within the normal range, and for a girl it is the very, very youngest end of the normal range).

"mothers who need to supervise their dependant male children should be aware of those around them and get the boy into a cubicle or a quiet corner and closely monitor him"

And I suspect, in practice, if this was happening, few women or girls would object or possibly not even notice. But what if the mother isn't supervising quite as closely as we'd like?

Rules are always going to draw the line in a way that puts some worthy cases on the "wrong" side - they are always a balancing act. If 10 is the rule then many will choose 10 regardless of the behaviour of their individual 10 year old.

If family cubicles were reserved for families with under 10s, though, there could be more facilities that could offer them.