Young dependent male children in women's only spaces?

Girls are just as bad at 'policing' what others should look like. Have you got your period yet? Are you not wearing a bra? She's wearing granny knickers. Tampons are the best.

Yet at the age of 16/17/18, teenagers are sharing bodily fluids and getting naked with each other. Regardless of their sexuality.

" don't like the attitude on this thread that all 11/12 boys are sex pests"
NOBODY IS SAYING THEY ARE!!!!!!

But- you don't take 11-12 year old boys into the ladies do you? Surely they don't let you???

Micah I find young girls can be just as nasty to each other as young boys. I suffered terribly at school for being flat chested and skinny legs - from girls in my year.

I'm the mother of young boys and when they have changed in the ladies we have whizzed in and out. Any young developing girls are not get changed in the communal part but in cubicle. We don't hang around and my sins do not have a shower there as I'm as keen as everyone else to get out of that environment.

I don't like the attitude on this thread that all 11/12 boys are sex pests. My sons are not. Same as your daughters are not picking on other girls for not wearing a bra. Let's stop this between us and agree that we need better facilities for all.

In

Actually elendon, while no ones saying theyre sex pests, i would think theres far, far more chance of boys harrassing girls, in a "ooh look, shes wearing a bra", or "shes got no boobs", or even the my mate fancies you type of way, than a boy being approached by a paedophile in a busy mens changing.

"
If paedophiles are not in the men's changing room, then why do we assume all 10/11 year olds are possible sex pests?"

Nobody does. Nobody has said anything of the sort. You made it up.

For those who do let their 10/11 yo boys use the ladies, don't you find it sad that when they turn 18 and definitely have to use the men's changing they will instantly be regarded as potential paedophiles (using your logic) by mothers with younger boys or do you just accept it?

No one does. It's about young girls feeling uncomfortable.

If paedophiles are not in the men's changing room, then why do we assume all 10/11 year olds are possible sex pests?

Yes thedancingbear, and isn't it also true that most sexual assaults on children are on girls not boys?

TBH this thread has shocked me. I take dd (9 yo) for her swimming lesson but she goes in the changing room on her own, I go straight to poolside to watch her. I'd just got over my anger about men being able to just say they felt like a woman to get access to women's changing areas and now this. It never even occurred to me that parents might be encouraging their 10/11 year old sons to use the ladies changing room unaccompanied. I think I might go in with her from now on (mostly because I've seen how the Y6 boys arse around on their way home from school rather than from a sex pest point of view).

I think bertrandrussell is right to say that the fear of paedophiles is often an exaggerated one, stoked by the mass media.

I don't have the stats to hand (and am disinclined to google them from my work computer) but isn't it the case that most sexual assaults on children are carried out by someone the victim knows? I just wonder if, in worrying about children's safety in changing rooms etc. our focus is in the wrong place.

There's an obvious echo of the classic rape myth - the stranger in the dark alley etc. Of course that's something that happens but it's not paradigmatic.

Oh I don't know, I've had kids peer under loo doors at me (in fairness their mothers have always been mortified). Wouldn't put it past unaccompanied 9/10/11 y old boys to do it just to be annoying.

The irony of this is that the more parents encourage their boys to use the ladies, the more other parents will perceive the men's to be dangerous so the men's will become for adult men only eventually, with everyone else crowded into the ladies. Surely the more boys who use the mens, the safer it will become? Though I don't believe the men's is unsafe for boys anyway.

I don't understand why people have a problem with young boys being in ladies toilets, they all have doors so it's not exactly like they will be watching you wee

I think what Bertrand actually means is that woman with young boys who don't let them go alone into adult male changing rooms are being hysterical.

If there are limited changing facilities in a leisure centre, you can be sure that the disabled facility is just that. A facility that just about meets law requirements.

I do not have a "women are stupid and irrational" narrative. I said that some people have irrational fears and it is the fears that should be addressed- their fears should not be accommodated by causing problems for other people. And forgive me, but a story of somebody taking photographs more than 10 years ago in another country is not going to do anything to show me that the fears are, in fact, rational.

And of course your child with disabilities should not be stopped from swimming. That's what the disabled facilities are for.

No, people are saying use the disabled facilities

I already covered why the risk of changing in a men's changing room wouldn't be worth it Bertrand. Try RTFT.

Gosh. What sentence did he get?

Given that it was over 10 years ago, I don't remember what sentence he got, I could have a google if it makes you feel better. I'll even translate it for you, if I can find it. Almost certainly nothing very much, same as he would get today. Sorry it doesn't fit into your 'women are stupid and irrational' narrative, though I don't think there was any need to pretend the wide eyed surprise thing, very passive aggressive.

If your child has disabilities, by the way, nobody is suggesting he should have to change alone

Yes, I can read, thanks. What people are saying though, is tough, don't go swimming.

"If I wouldn't feel safe in male changing rooms and I would be stupid to take the risk then I would certainly never send my disabled son into that situation either. Not because he is at greater risk than I am, but because he lacks the wherewithal to deal with out of the way situations arising"

Do you really think you would be in danger if you changed in the men's changing room? I'm not suggesting you do it- it would be horrible and embarrassing for all concerned- but would you feelat risk??

If your child has disabilities, by the way, nobody is suggesting he should have to change alone.

"Where we lived at the time, a man had been photographing boys in the changing rooms of the local swimming baths."

Gosh. What sentence did he get?

Where we lived at the time, a man had been photographing boys in the changing rooms of the local swimming baths. He hadn't touched any of them, yet, but as anyone who knows anything about this sort of crime will tell you, it was just a matter of time. Not quite so irrational as some would like us to believe.

Similar has happened in women's changing rooms. Anywhere where humans are, even momentarily naked, is a pull for perverts of all kinds.

I wouldn't, for one second, suggest that there are perverts in every changing room, however, I also wouldn't be crass enough to suggest that parents' worries about such things happening are irrational. Because they aren't.

If I wouldn't feel safe in male changing rooms and I would be stupid to take the risk then I would certainly never send my disabled son into that situation either. Not because he is at greater risk than I am, but because he lacks the wherewithal to deal with out of the way situations arising.

None of this negates that women and girls have the right not to be ogled by anyone. However, practically, it does mean that for a period of time, a sizeable number of children will be unable to go swimming which is sad, but easily solved by having the changing areas set out slightly differently.

I agree with Bertrand, it is rather irrational to think a NT 8 year old would be in danger in a male changing room in normal circumstances. I can understand not wanting to send them in if its a quiet day and there's a chance there might be only one other person in there but I expect most people don't take their children swimming at such quiet times.

"that the outcome would be that some boys in this situation wouldn't be able to swim."

I accept that. And I also accept that in an ideal world, there would be loads of family changing rooms. But most swimming pools struggle for money and space, so that's probably not going to happen.

So pragmatically, the thing to do is to address irrational fears. And it is irrational to think that your 8 year old boy is in danger in a male changing room.

I'm wondering if you read my post at all Bertrand? I didn't say it should be allowed to take priority over the needs of others - I said precisely the opposite, that the outcome would be that some boys in this situation wouldn't be able to swim.

I think it needs to be admitted that that will be the outcome, though, rather than there being some pretence that it's all fine because it's a silly concern anyway so anyone who doesn't think any eight year old boy will be fine in any men's changing room any time is stupid and if they choose not to send their child in there then it's their fault and nothing to do with how changing rooms are set up.

We should respect everyone's feelings of comfort/discomfort with certain situations (not just the group whose feelings we share). That means accepting that if some boys who are eight or nine sometimes don't get to swim (and nor do their sisters who will only get to swim if all siblings can), this is not a sign that their mothers are doing something wrong and being ridiculous.

Women with young boys are just not very well catered for, the way things are currently arranged (and that's an observation, not a complaint, by the way, before anyone rushes to be the first to post "well why not campaign for better arrangements then"). Since they aren't well catered for, sometimes they won't be able to swim.

Cubicles would help. Extra rooms or bits of rooms round corners set aside for women with young boys would help. All sorts of things would help. I hope things will improve in the future.

Hmm. I'm a bit torn here. Because I actually think, that while a mother's discomfort at sending a NT 8 year old into the male changing room shouldn't be dismissed- it certainly shouldn't be allowed to take priority over the needs of others. Because, frankly it is a bit silly. He just isn't at any risk-it's a family swimming pool at a busy time.

schwab I have rtft. But I'm guilty of using 'you' to reply to your stance it's ok for anyone in that position to invade a young girls privacy.

Of course there are better arrangements than the current female, male and token disabled facilities. But right now that isn't the situation.

In fact the whole growing breasts thing made me want desperately to avoid anyone seeing me, male or female, adult or child. That's not to say it therefore would have been fine to have boys there - it still wouldn't have been - but the idea that everything was fine and I was relaxed so long as no boys were there is ludicrous. From that age on I wanted privacy, full stop. Girls rarely get it.