Young dependent male children in women's only spaces?

Our pool permits children to swim unaccompanied from age 8. If that age competent to swim alone, they are competent to change and use toilets alone.

(Obviously there may be some exceptions, if there are additional needs).

DC well before the age of puberty Are not remotely comparable to 'intact transwomen'.

I can see that it might be harder if there are older DC, say teens, whose mother requires accommodation in a refuge. But as the alternative for that dependent child would be to leave with the parent that poses the danger, then I think it has to be done. I am reasonably sure that organisations are used to this scenario, and have measures to ensure everyone's safety as far as is humanly (and humanely) possible.

At DSs swimming lessons there is a sign on the doors saying children over 8 should use the correct changing rooms. When DS1 got to 8 I allowed him and DS2 (who was 5) to go into the men's changing rooms together on their own.

In our local leisure centre, the changing areas are all together, (males on one side, females on the other) with lots of single and family sized cubicles and then two larger rooms for group changing, one for males, one for females. I prefer that all cubicles are together as you can still keep an eye on your DC without them being in a completely separate room.

I don't like the idea of them being young and not having a parent with them, especially when they're at their most vulnerable.

Micah, have you mentioned it to the sports centre staff? Could they put up signs like ours does?

I frequent a sports centre with separate sex changing.

Often there are boys in the womens. I dont mean little boys, i mean up to 12 years if age. They're not always using the facilities either, theyre with a younger sibling who is.

Im not comfortable with it. There is a lot of staring.

The general feeling from the parents seems to be if the parents are with these boys, then its ok. There also seems to be a perception that boys are unsafe in male spaces- everyone i ask seems horrified at the thought of their boys getting changed in the mens. However girls are fine to get changed without an adult from a young age, because they use the womens.

Same for the womens toilets. I have been in there when a woman has sent her older son in on his own while she waits outside.

I have challenged it, but nothing is done.

Sorry meant to add the proviso that the boys are little (under eight).

I have always taken my ds's in with me. If I am teaching and on a school trip ( if there is no male teacher available) I would usually get any young boys to use the women's facilities too, so I can supervise and make sure there is nothing untoward going on. If the loos or whatever are busy ask the other women in there if it is ok.

Wow at the women on the tumble board giving them a hard time. All the mums and teachers I know do the same so I think it is pretty standard.

I would guess that people with those views do not have children. Of course you wouldn't send a very young child into a changing room on their own. Our local swimming pool doesn't allow unaccompanied young children into changing rooms so if I had a ds, going by this logic I would have had to accompany him into the men's changing room (and dh would have had to go into the ladies with our actual real life dd). There are signs up saying that once children turn 8 they must use the appropriate changing room which seems fair enough to me (although I have no idea what the arrangements are for parents with disabled older children).

Do people really object to young boys being in a women's changing room? I've never come across this (and I definitely wouldn't agree).

How ridiculous. If the reason for women only spaces is safety, how much danger does a five/six/seven year old boy (supervised by his mother/another female carer or guardian) pose?

there was a lot of talk about how boys can't be trusted under any circumstances

There are lots of nutters out there, is all I can say. I mean, sure, I don't want to see a teen male in a women's toilet, but boys under the age of about 7 (this is when I routinely let DS1 go in the men's on his own), are fine and it would be potentially dangerous (IMO) for boys much younger than this to have to go in the men's toilets unaccompanied.

"children young enough to need adult supervision are just children for the purposes of being in gendered/sexed spaces and it's irrelevant whether they're boys or girls."

Agree with tabulahrasa. No idea what the consensus opinion is.

I'm not sure you are going to get a consensus here any more than it seems there was in this argument.

I think there are a few issues here. Age and dependcy of the child is obviously key. What are the alternatives and why they might not be appropriate or even exist (and the underlying issues around that I.e. male violence); the fact that women are generally the primary carers of children and so male children in female spaces is going to be much more common.

I have come across a lot of anti-mother rhetoric amongst feminists (not so much amongst rad fems though) so I suspect that this is part of that. Personally I just think it is another form of misogyny, blaming women for their own oppression and blaming women for male violence when they are just trying to get by in the world.

I have no clue on the general consensus but I have no problem with girls in the mens changing room or boys in the womens. What else are you meant to do with them?

I have no idea if there's a consensus or what it would be...

But IMO, children young enough to need adult supervision are just children for the purposes of being in gendered/sexed spaces and it's irrelevant whether they're boys or girls.

Little boys have always been as welcome in any women-only spaces as little girls. 7 usually seems to be roughly the cut-off point.