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Original poster

Another trans related one, I'm afraid

168 replies

Monison · 03/02/2016 09:49

Hello - I am an occasional poster, long time lurker on FWR. I love this board and have found the wisdom and eloquence of a number of posters quite inspirational. So I am wondering if you can help me articulate my objections to the following:

DD (yr5) had an assembly yesterday led by an organisation working with LGBT young people. The content was essentially encouraging tolerance and inclusivity (great) and making the simple point that some people are gay/bi and THAT IS FINE (again, great). However the speaker then talked about how some people are trans/gender fluid/non binary etc and that it is perfectly ok for boys to become girls and girls to become boys. DD cheerfully told me that if anyone wants to become the other sex that is perfectly normal, and should be supported. When I told her I thought it might be easier if we extended our ideas of what being a boy and girl means so that 'being a boy' can include stereotypically 'feminine' things and vice versa without changing bodies or biology she looked aghast.

There are so many issues I want to raise with the school but I am concerned they - like DD - will immediately assume that I am anti-trans individuals (which I am not) rather than questioning the wider trans narrative. I am really concerned that by including the issue of trans within the LGB discourse, it is too easy to uncritically assume that the same notions of acceptance apply rather than looking more deeply into issues of socialisation and damaging gender stereotypes.

I am also concerned that the school is allowing organisations to express as fact (and without nuance or debate) the current trans orthodoxy to children - who are clearly not equipped to think critically around these issues themselves and will accept the clunky logic of well meaning but, in my view, damaging ideology.

Another concern is that DDs school currently has a child in yr 3 who 'identifies as a girl' and the advice from the local authority has been similarly unthinking (imo). The school have been told not to out 'her' and treat her as a girl to all intents and purposes. Clearly this will present more issues as puberty approaches, and when the children start going on residential trips (no policy on whether 'she' will share a dorm with the girls, or if the girls parents will be informed). But most of all they have not questioned AT ALL this child's right to self determine, despite the fact that 'she' does not have legal consent for anything else until she is 16. I can't help but find the school's approach collusive, bordering on abusive. It is likely, after all that this child will not transition in adult life and may well have questions about why the significant adults in 'her' life allowed a child to make such an enormous decision without any context or understanding.

So, really what I am asking is how do we begin to talk to schools and other organisations about gender critical approaches to trans issues without being immediately dismissed as transphobes?

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Original poster
Monison · 05/02/2016 09:27

Didn't Owen Jones say something similar. He hadn't thought it through either

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SlowFJH · 05/02/2016 09:21

If Mumsnet is around in 20 years, I believe that much of the anger expressed here will end up in the wrong side of history. I am proud that my teenage sons jumped to defend their friend is gay. This would have been unheard of in my youth.

We are becoming more liberal and tolerant with each passing year (despite ISIS). The "anti-trans" vitriol is doing more harm than good to the image of feminism.

briss · 05/02/2016 09:05

I agree the trans agenda is the complete opposite of encouraging you to be who you are. I firmly believe this has come about due to the insidious creep of blue for boys and pink for girls. Parents and to a lesser extent kids believe if they don't conform to gender norms there must be something medically wrong with them. It's fucking terrifying quite frankly.

briss · 05/02/2016 09:00

It would terrify me if this happened in dds primary. Dd loves football, hates pink, plays with the boys, wears jeans and checked shirts and football boots. She's 9 and very happy as a girl thanks very much. I've even had a parent say to me 'well she's basically a boy isn't she?' I can just imagine what other kids would say after an assembly like that.

TheXxed · 05/02/2016 08:58

Slow what does that actually mean? Why not just say people like to behave in ways which are not stereotypical and be done with. By having categories creates boundaries where there needn't be.

Original poster
Monison · 05/02/2016 08:57

Excuse typos: on phone

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Original poster
Monison · 05/02/2016 08:55

And it is teaching them that self identity is done by matching what you like against rigid gender norms. It is not encouraging to accept themselves the way they are. quite the opposite. If they are gender non confirming the trend is definitely for adjusting biological sex accordingly. I think that is shockingly conservative and dangerous. It is disingenuous to say that it is about tolerance and respect. That is to wilfully miss the point

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SlowFJH · 05/02/2016 08:35

I don't think this school is "giving children 23 gender options to choose from". I think it is teaching them about tolerance, acceptance and not to be mean to each other.

ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 05/02/2016 08:17

Shortcut I sincerely doubt (hope) that genderism is anywhere on the agenda outside the bubble of south east/middle class/leftieism I live in. I can't imagine a city comprehensive in Leicester giving children 23 gender options to choose from. Though I may be wrong!

SlowFJH · 05/02/2016 07:44

Of course it has Hermione. And that's why they love it when Radical Feminists are portrayed as "attacking" trans people (referring to them as "it" etc). It plays right into the trap they're setting and allows them to sit back and spectate an internecine conflict.

HermioneWeasley · 04/02/2016 19:56

Yes monison getting men to be the focus and priority of feminism and reinforcing rigid gender boundaries has been a coup for right wingers and MRAs.

ShortcutButton · 04/02/2016 19:50

I have been thinking about earlier posts which referee to 'trans' as a fashionable trend for young people at the moment. And the predicament in schools.

My eldest dd goes to secondary school in September, so I have no idea of the culture there, yet.

However, we live in a very multicultural deprived inner city area. We, generally around these parts, don't suffer the middle-class WASPY malaise of needy to present as liberal and PC. Am interested to hear if the trans narrative is all pervasive.

Don't really know where I'm going with this. Just looking for potential to find majority, like minded people maybe

JessicasRabbit · 04/02/2016 19:32

To be fair, being a science teacher actually gives me a bit more freedom than others. Because I can always hit back with "it's my job to teach science, show me the science supporting your ideas". I've been teaching human reproduction recently and I'm getting quite skilled at answering emotive questions factually, and without embarrassment. All useful if I ever need to stand up for gender critical thinking though I secretly hope I never have to.

Original poster
Monison · 04/02/2016 19:21

Anyone who disagrees with the trans narrative has been so successfully silenced by trans activists (probably helped by a generous wad of right wing money) that is is impossible now to object, even slightly, without being deemed a bigot hell bent on ruining all trans peoples' lives. How it got to this so quickly frightens me beyond measure. Teachers (and social workers, and other public sector workers) are in a dreadful position - I bet there are loads of people who outwardly tow the party line but really think it's a crock of shit. But we can't communicate with each other about it. That is the shocking thing. And loads of liberal lefties have been hoodwinked into supporting an agenda that restricts women's freedoms and reinforces offensive gender stereotypes. You really can't make it up. And yes, I have discussed the issue before and yes, I did get a head tilt! A friend posted a completely reasonable gender critical article today on FB and received some truly outraged responses from people who would normally 'identify' as pretty radfem. The anger revealed that they hadn't really read the article at all - just touching on a gender critical subject was enough for them to completely dismiss the arguments, announce that the author clearly wanted trans people to suffer rather than the 'correct' view which is to 'centre' the rights of trans women (men) above women. So now the people at the centre of feminism are... men. MRAs must be delighted.

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venusinscorpio · 04/02/2016 19:05

I totally agree with you, and I totally respect any teacher's decision not to challenge it in any way. They shouldn't have to risk their job, and I am angry that they are forced into that position. It's all so unthinking.

JessicasRabbit · 04/02/2016 18:57

Any sort of phobic is enough to get a teacher fired. As gender critical is being increasingly painted as transphobic it's not at all surprising teachers wouldn't want to speak out. For me, it would be particularly hard as I'm a science teacher. And I'll be damned before I teach controversial "science" without expressing the controversy. I will never teach that men can become women without pointing out that you can't change chromosomes, for instance. If absolutely necessary I will point out that regardless of the definitions of 'man' and 'woman', 'male' and 'female' have biological meanings and no amount of surgery, social acceptance or anything at all can allow a person to switch from one to another. That said, I really hope that it doesn't come up, or that my school are sensible enough to realise that what I'm saying is scientifically correct.

venusinscorpio · 04/02/2016 18:39

It's so wrong that a teacher would have to risk getting fired if they couldn't bring themselves to endorse the trans narrative. It's like a science teacher having to teach creationism on an equal level to evolution. Agree with you that the school won't have really thought it through and so don't see any problem with it.

I hope parents might complain, as teachers can't.

JessicasRabbit · 04/02/2016 18:24

Equality and diversity in school should include sex equality. Our school isn't great at it (I'm trying to improve but many schools are resistant to changing stuff, and wanting to add sex equality AND consent teaching in a catholic school isn't easy). I think I've said that DSis (21) had no idea how recent votes for women were until she saw the suffragettes film.

A school wouldn't think that the trans stuff was controversial really. Most ordinary people haven't thought it all through, and teachers are generally ordinary people. Add in the statutory requirement to support trans students and an LGBT assembly is an easy way to tick a few boxes without much thought.

In addition, teachers are public sector workers. Standing up against the trans narrative would probably be enough to get a teacher fired. It hasn't come up in my school, but I'm not sure I'd publicly speak out against it. I might have a word with the deputy head, who'd do a head tilt and explain about statutory requirements and do the assembly anyway.

TwilightRabbit · 04/02/2016 11:15

Hi, first time on this type of thread, but nodding furiously at most of the posts here. Please forgive me if I'm not using the correct terminology, and I hope I'm not offending anyone. I'm very confused as to the Trans 'thing' and haven't liked to articulate in the real world, for fear of being called anti-Trans.
I'm very uncomfortable with the increase of people wanting to 'label' and 'box' gender and/or sex in children. Like others have said, children are fluid in their likes and needs, but it seems to be that that fluidity needs to be labelled as 'something' rather than just 'how a kid is'
I have a friend, whose son, from a very early age, loved dressing as a 'girl', much preferred the company of girls, and was quite traditionally feminine. She has just 'let him be him', despite the school gate mums asking if he was gay/trans/body dysmorphic etc. He is now 15 and a gorgeously wonderful boy, who is happy, confident and comfortable in whatever sexuality he has chosen,and refuses to label himself as anything. I'm not sure that would have happened if he'd been told that he was trans.

Original poster
Monison · 04/02/2016 10:47

I doubt it - I was at a meeting recently discussing disadvantaged groups in schools and girls were not even mentioned. Lots of time spent talking about rare minority groups, no time spent talking about girls and STEM subjects, or consent, or playground space.....

When I mentioned girls I could see a few eye-rolls. Here she goes again, banging on about feminism. Because labelling someone a feminist means you don't have to listen to them apparently. And don't we all know girls do better than boys, so maybe we should redirect our energies...

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caitlinohara · 04/02/2016 10:32

That's a bloody good point, Hovis. I am frequently confused by the terminology on this subject but hadn't really stopped to think about 'transsexual' becoming 'transgender'.

shortcut do you even GET feminist groups visiting schools and giving assemblies? I have a feeling that the only way women's rights are covered in the curriculum is by reference to history e.g suffragettes.

Seriouslyffs · 04/02/2016 10:19

Monison
'there will be a flurry of trans children suing their parents/NHS/schools and some serious sexual assaults before the trans narrative will be looked at critically'
Next years Olympics could accelerate this. Although the decision by the IOC is completely wrong, it could further the cause of 'us right thinkers'.
If Nicola Adams gets beaten up by a trans man or the Iranian women's football team wins, public opinion will turn pretty swiftly.

Original poster
Monison · 04/02/2016 08:59

Obsidian, I think the same thing - there will be a flurry of trans children suing their parents/NHS/schools and some serious sexual assaults before the trans narrative will be looked at critically. And even then feminists will be ignored. It will be some white guy in government who suddenly sees a problem that the media takes seriously. A poster on another thread mentioned the Handmaid's tale a few days ago - and it feels a bit like where this is going (obvs not as extreme!) eg, making things worse for women so that things can be better for others, silencing women's voices, simply never factoring women's concerns into any analysis of social priorities. On the bright side, I have spoken to DD and she has been easily dissuaded from the trans narrative.

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Lottapianos · 04/02/2016 08:55

Hovis, I'm a grown woman who asked to be sterilised when I was 28 and was told categorically no. It does seem utterly ridiculous that young children are being pumped with hormones on the basis of their interest in particular toys or particular types of clothing.

And you make a good point about the move from 'transsexual' to 'transgender'

Original poster
Monison · 04/02/2016 08:50

Yes that's an interesting point, Hovis. Grown women can't be sterilised easily but 5 year old boys can be girls. So basically a grown woman has less agency than an small male child. And to top it off it is written so deeply into the 'caring liberal' narrative that most people don't even stop to question it (except the amazing posters on FWR!)

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