can we reject gender and still be pro female?

Yes, but it's a bit tenuous, isn't it? A lot of women will share my experiences of being a woman, but they may be more or less important to how they view their gender identity. And there's a lot of "shared experience" that I haven't experienced myself and never will and then the only thing I can use to relate to that is empathy. And the identity of the group tends to loosen its hold once the group is no longer present. Other identities become more important.

IABF, I sometimes wear block heels under 2 inches. I'm not sure what the proper name for them is. Cuban heels? I suppose those are unisex to some extent. I wouldn't wear very high heels or stilettos because I don't understand how to walk in them, and my mum and sister don't wear them so nobody has ever really explained to me how to do it.

I have never really noticed other women wearing heels at work or whatever, but I know some of them must be doing because the shops are full of them! Maybe I just don't pay enough attention to what is on people's feet.

I think the biological things Ophelia has mentioned are a consistent group identity. That doesn't mean all members of the group will have experienced them. It is the identity of the group, not of each individual.

But Ophelia, not even your biological examples are biologically determined and they don't necessarily form the basis for a consistent group identity:

TTC - biology (typical shared experience between women) - I've never done that
Pmt/menstruation - biology (typical shared experience) - not all women menstruate, not all women get PMT, menstruation does not have the same significance for all women
Buying a bra - biology (typical shared experience) - ^there's no real biological need for a bra. It may be more comfortable for some women, but a lot of flat-chested freaks like me either don't wear one, or don't need all the measuring and comparing to ensure a proper fit.

Hmm, just thinking about my female colleagues shoe choices. By and large flat shoes/boots. There may be a choice to change into under the desk but no one really bothers.
TBH I really don't care about what my female colleagues wear on their feet and I assume they think the same about me.

Yes, 0phelia. Mention something like the time you started unexpectedly and leaked somewhere inconvenient or embarrassing, or the comments you had from boys as your breasts grew, and women will be nodding and grimacing and sharing similar memories. Men don't and never will.

This "shared" experience between women is most likely due to being simply biologically a woman.

TTC - biology (typical shared experience between women)
Pmt/menstruation - biology (typical shared experience)
Buying a bra - biology (typical shared experience)
Shopping for high heels - gendered (not majority shared experience)
Liking pink? - gendered (not all women)
Watching Sex and The City whilst eating Haagen Daazs - gendered (not all women)

Where gender causes a problem is through conditioning, which is separate from biological limitations (or strengths).
Where conditioning means (eg): men are assertive and get what they want, paired with: women are available at all times to other people's need and need to look decorative. All BS when the only difference is biology.

I wear high heels sometimes because I have short stumpy legs! But I wear Converse for actually walking, and doing anything.

"Interests and preferences should just be that. There is no reason to attach them to what somebody has in their pants"

Yup.

Almost always wear flat boots, flat shoes or trainers. Because other shoes hurt my feet.

Have a couple of pairs of shoes with a 1 inch heel that I would wear with a "business dress", probably just for the duration of a function.

Itall to answer your question re shoes, -I'm tall enough not feel the need to add inches but primarily I prefer flats as I prefer the speed that I can get around on them.
I am anti gender but that has bugger all to do with my shoe ownership, of which is HUGE!

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid - "Is there?" Well, I think there is sometimes. If you talk about menstruation, for example, there is an assumption that all women have gone through similar experiences, especially wrt the whole cultural baggage of hiding and embarassment about your period. Or sexual harassment and assault. When I was a young swan making friends at uni, we all went through this horrible phase of bonding over our experiences of sexual harassment and how we escaped and how it made us feel and pooling advice on how to cope, how to avoid, and where to hit poeple to ensure the greatest effect. And I think we were negotiating a sort of collective identity as women (not a great identity, obviously, but it was better than being left alone with these experiences). But it wasn't a stable identity, is my point, it didn't inform our exchanges with each other and other people all the time, or in the same way.

I don't wear heels or makeup because I can't be arsed. I like pink among other colours and I sometimes wear dresses, sometimes trousers. I pick and choose the bits of "femininity" I want, which is fine with me.

There is believed to be, particularly amongst feminists, a "shared experience" of being a woman

Is there? (not goady - genuine question).

I don't wear heels cause I can't walk in them but lots of my friends adore their heels. I personally feel better with makeup. I'm very pale and tend to look like the walking dead without it.

For me rejecting "gender" is exactly what you're saying here - that I want to reject the idea that:

a, "pink" things and frilliness and prettiness are the sole remit of women,

and

b, that these things are somehow "lesser".

Interests and preferences should just be that. There is no reason to attach them to what somebody has in their pants.

itllall - right,interesting dilemma there...I think that on the one hand we can assume that since most women are gendered as such, there's a high likelihood of their having gone through similar experiences and socialising factors and so on. I can get on board with that. But what we can't assume is the extent to which these "shared" experiences shape how they see themselves - they may shape certain behaviour patterns and influence our choices, but they may not play a terribly significant role in how we choose to view our identities, whether we see ourselves first and foremost as women: sometimes, always, or hardly ever at all. The whole shared experience thing is a form of interpellation, but it's not the only form.

And I hardly ever wear high heels because they slow me down and make me feel clumsy, because they don't suit me, because I don't have to and because there is no advantage for me in doing so (ditto skirts, makeup, long hair etc.) "Looking pretty" isn't really on my radar.

I don't wear heels because I'm already 6 foot tall and they don't come in my size unless. I buy them from transvestite shops.

Have fun unpicking the gender implications of that....

uglyswan

I find this interesting. There is believed to be, particularly amongst feminists, a "shared experience" of being a woman, a woman will have had experiences a man will not, because she is a woman. We can also assume that men will have experiences that women do not. Hence the solicitation of "women's views" and why many women think men cannot be feminists.

Since female fashion is largely designed to perpetuate females gendered role of "looking pretty" - how many of the posters on here who are so anti gender actually eschew heeled shoes for example, and if not why not ? (sorry to come on here DEMANDING information, but it's an interesting discussion)

Gender gets us to police ourselves. Wearing pink frilly dresses or playing football is fun and harmless. Any child would probably enjoy them. But accepting the harmless childish aspects sets you up to accept all the other under the radar stuff in adulthood. No man needs to walk up and tell you to wear more makeup . It's already internalised

"I thought gender what about stereotypical expectations of masculinity and femininity - roles and behaviours expected by society as a result of your sex?" -yes, but it's not only that. It's also the assumption that your gender is a constant and homogeneous part of your identity, when in fact it is not. A large part of how we see ourselves and our identities is not gendered. You don't e.g. walk to the train station, buy a ticket and get on the train as a woman - but people observing will see a woman doing exactly those things. Have you ever been asked for a 'woman's' input on something and thought "why a 'woman's' input? why not myinput? or a human being's input'?" Gender assigns a fixed identity to us as individuals which does not actually match how we see ourselves. That's what makes it a 'false construct'.

Can we be female, be women, be proud of what makes us women and still reject the concept of gender?

I think that any individual woman (in the biological sense) can like all those things that are traditionally being described as "feminine", ie have long hair, wear dresses/skirts and jewellery, prefer the colour pink etc, while at the same time reject the normativity of the gender roles.

I.e. it's possible to like the "girly" stuff on a personal individual level, and at the same time reject the notion that you MUST like that stuff, because you are a woman.

That is an interesting way of thinking about it. Thank you, I will ponder. Once I have been out for groceries!

WITW, I do think we are saying very similar things and it is frustrating when language gets in the way!

So yes, menstruation isn't learned, but learning that you must be very discreet about menstruation is, tampons having a pastel wrapper is!, not going to school because you have your period is, being considered old enough for sex just because you menstruate is, society deciding that providing sanitary towels is not a priority is.

These are all learned and constructed ways of treating women, but society could choose/learn/change so that women's role/behaviour position was different.

So much of femininity is to do with specific treatment of the female body, and I think it can often be hard to separate out femininity from the female body, hence autogynephilia, forced feminisation etc.

Yy to imust!

I understand your position better now, thanks, almond.

I am using gender more in the way the OP did - the first post was about "feminine" behaviours and interests, which of course are voluntary/learned in a way menstruation just isn't..

And surely a large part of why FGM is carried out is because female genitals are considered unfeminine and must be mutilated to fit the feminine ideal?

The same for foot binding, breast implants, labioplasty, tight lacing of corsets?

You say that your DH thinks you should be campaigning for better childcare and safer streets.

That's gender-based oppression, right there.

Why is 'better childcare' a woman's issue, not something both of you should care about?

Why isn't educating young men not to rape young women (or other young men) a man's issue?