I have made a most unfeminist decision and I am struggling with it

Hello, PacificDogwood, I am here, but working with two children and H and I are not reconciled to the point we are living together again (that is still a way off). If I have to leave off posting this, because of DC waking up, I will be back later.

I had a thread on these boards which details the story from my perspective, which was in a quieter place, and posted under my old name (PM me if you want a bit of guidance there). There was no physical infidelity, which seems to be a fundamental difference from the situation you are struggling with (although he was emotionally involved, with a mutual professional colleague, which did not help matters; certainly he was physically and psychologically absent). My first marriage did end because XH cheated, though, which is a whole other saga.

So, I give you my reflections on the two experiences (at this point in time. I agree with the observations made by previous posters that we can, and should, only make choices based on what we know at any given time; and that the crux of the matter is having the independence and means to be able to act differently if needs be - although sometimes with two children as a single parent, I do question the alacrity with which LTB is said on the relationships board - if a man is not committed to his marriage and family, that will not suddenly change if the marriage breaks up; if he is committed to his marriage and family, you have something to work with, either to improve the marriage, or to separate and co-parent amicably)

Okay, I need to come back later, sorry...

Tbh OP I think you're intellectualising personal issues. In fact I think feminism is a red herring here.

Other women are irrelevant. The question is whether you're making the right choice for you. And whether you're going about reconciliation in a way that's likely to produce the outcome that you want - which is for your relationship to survive.

Have you required full disclosure and complete transparency as a condition of staying together? Are you confident or do you have proof that a) he's stopped lying b) won't cheat again? Is he determined to do all it takes to regain your trust? Is he prepared to face repeated episodes of anger and resentment from you over the next few years as periodically, these painfully arise from his past betrayal? Does he know you're ready to leave at the merest whiff of lies or infidelity in the future?

To take your question at face value - imo there's nothing essentially unfeminist in staying with a cheat; but there is something unfeminist in surpressing one's own needs, one's own intuitions, doubts, suspicions, capitulating to less than honest terms for fear of the alternative - in that case one's not treating oneself as an equal to a partner but a disempowered subordinate.

As long as you're not doing that, I don't see what the problem is.

Interestingly I felt similar when I decided to change my name on marriage. It was most odd. At first, I considered whether to do it, and decided to based on (what I still think are) reasons unrelated to sexism, so I felt like this was fine, I had my reasons to do it and I was totally happy with the decision.

Then I did it, and it jarred, and I felt a pull, and now I feel like I'm not allowed to be upset/annoyed that I made the decision to change because I made the decision for totally feminist friendly reasons. Which is bonkers! I mean, what does that even mean? A couple of years on I've finally got around to changing my name on most official things but not all, and it does fit with what I want, but I'm not going to forget my old name and as my childhood best friend says, "You'll always be XXXX to me!" which I like :)

I don't think that you staying in a relationship traps other women in a relationship they are unhappy in. If you went around insisting everyone do the same because look I'm doing it and it's working out so amazingly for me, then that would be different, but I don't get that impression at all.

I also wanted to say that it's okay to feel crappy about a decision you have made. Or not. And just generally to divorce how you feel about it from how "feminist" it is. And also that if you don't want to leave, then don't! As long as you aren't endangering any children by staying, anyway.

In my experience people who are truly unhappy in relationships and don't feel as though they have to stay don't stay for very long. The people who stay just don't see leaving as a proper option for whatever reason.

Just because we're feminists doesn't mean we have to personally disadvantage ourselves in order to live by our principles in every case, particularly when there's so much at stake. One big problem we have as women is our conditioning to put the needs of others before our own. Life is short and brutal enough without suffering for the sake of ideals as well when nobody else is being harmed by it. Sometimes pragmatically putting what serves your own personal needs best in the moment is quite feminist enough.

Ah okay. Well for me, yes that's what feminism means. If a man made a decision that suited him, I don't feel he'd be considering the affect on other men.
Feminism is having the luxury of choice. And no, you're not letting other women down by making a decision to stay, if that is what's right for you.

For what's it's worth, I was in a DV relationship and it took me a long time to leave. I kept on taking him back, and when I finally left I never pressed charges. It could be said that that's unfeminist of me (and it's something I have considered a lot) but I've come to the conclusion that by having the confidence to make decisions that suit me and empower me as an individual, that's not unfeminist. (Don't want to derail the thread with this I just thought it was relevant)

I think what feminism means to people is quite personal and I'm sure some people will disagree with me. But for me, it's about women having the same means, tools and opportunities as men to make the choices and decisions that they decide will benefit them, taking into account whatever they deem important. You have the freedom of choice, and by choosing to stay you don't take that freedom of choice away from another woman

"To be a feminist you don't have to base your decisions around what's right for women as a whole."

It's been a very long day and I can't work out what people think about this comment I made yesterday that keeps cropping up

I'm sure you do - but what I meant was I think that one -collectively as feminists- should

"To be a feminist you don't have to base your decisions around what's right for women as a whole.

I'd be interested to discuss that some more here tbh - I think that's what I am stuck on and cannot get past.
No need to pussy-foot around my own personal situation; I've got plenty of RL support and advice for that - I need some Vipers to be more rigorous with me grin"

OK, then, I think you do actually!

Not got time to read the whole thread yet, but will come back and do so

Only got to the part about not leaving - I left three years ago. Since last summer we have been reconciling, albeit in a very different landscape. Not going to comment further without RTFT but life is not black and white.

I'm so glad I read this thread.

I liked your post magimedi. I feel the same about joining in the feminist discussion - I feel I am but not knowledgeable enough to fully recognise all intricacies.

Op, many have told me to leave on these boards when I've struggled with issues between DH and I. But we've worked through them - me how to understand how he thinks so I can help him understand things differently and him to change and listen to my views. And he's been learning. And things are different. And I have a close friend who really does need to leave her partner as he had no capacity to learn, change or acquire new understanding.

So, yes, we never stop learning, we never stop changing, relationships evolve - and in either way, worsen or improve?

Principles are important but I have a completely different set of principles in my professional life now to those I started with due to my ongoing learning around the area. Including the learning I've acquired becoming a parent.

Some great points in this thread. I just wanted to say that someone wrote something about the decision being leaving a cheater vs forgiving them- and I feel it is quite possible to stay and work on the relationship together and not feel duty bound to forgive the infidelity. It's something I'm going through now. And I've said that what my partner has done is not for me to forgive, it's not a forgivable thing in that way, it's for him to process his guilt and shame over and I can't help him with that.

And also agree with each day actively making the decision to stay, because I want to, not because I feel I have to. I don't think it's un-feminist, really quite the opposite.

to you OP

Are you sure that the 'principle' you that makes you think perhaps you should leave but don't want to isn't your gut feeling.
In my experience that was the case: I knew, but didn't want to know.

If that is the case, it still doesn't mean you should leave though. Maybe you know you should but you just don't want to - as long as you are honest with yourself I think you can live with it. I have had to swallow some uncomfortable truths about myself on the way, and hey, no ones perfect!!

Well, there are things that no feminist should ever do or forgive, like abetting a rape or something. But if it's a private action that mostly affects your own life, I don't think you need to apply a rigid feminist standard and nothing else. "The personal is political" indeed, but it's still personal, and are we free people or slaves?

Think of all the cosmetics and high heels that are purchased and used by feminists, the legs that are shaved, even pubic hair (O it is a tragedy) but most of the time, I would say it's more important to think about what we're doing and being aware of how we're influenced in our choices, rather than deciding any issue any particular way. If we came down on the non-feminist or anti-feminist side consistently, then we might have something to worry about. But a few decisions that feel right for ourselves as individuals even if they aren't quite following the party line? I wouldn't be too concerned.

It's often said on here that one woman shouldn't be held up as representing all women. That's you, that is, PacificDogwood.

Sometimes feminism is just about choice.

And TheWomanintheWall has posted whilst I have havered over my post & put it so much better than me.

I don't often venture onto the feminist threads, although I do consider myself to be a feminist. (I find the intellect & amazing clarity of posting a bit intimidating).

But here I am, because it is you, PD.

What you choose to do is what you do is as a person first & as a feminist second.

What you decide to do now is not a decision that has to stay set in stone for ever. It is for the now & if it works carry on. If things change you too can change.

And I know I am just repeating what Bertrand said a couple of posts behind me:

""To be a feminist you don't have to base your decisions around what's right for women as a whole".

I hope things work out for you & I'd just say (as a 'veteran' of 32 years of marriage) that it is an ever changing & evolving thing & there have been times when I could have left & chose not to & right now my marriage is good - but that's now, not two years down the line. Life goes on & changes all the time.

"It'd be refusing to trust yourself as an authority on your own life."

Well put.

OP, others have made very good points about keeping yourself in a position to make an alternative decision. I will just add this:

Every day is a chance to make the choice again. If every day you are making an active choice that staying is the right thing for you, for now, on balance, then you are a woman in control of her life. Who knows her options and weighs them up to find the best one.

That is freedom and is a feminist action - not in a "choice feminism" way but in a measured, imperfect world way.

I agree with Bertrand about children, a lot depends on your every day behaviour, respect, support etc. But the model of two parents who could both live independently if the need arose is not a bad thing. My parents have had their ups and downs, they do not appear lovey-dovey towards each other but they are respectful, supportive and live together mostly harmoniously. My DM has always maintained financial independence with my DF's total approval and support and both parents have always stressed the importance of this to me, I really respect them for it and feel they have been good role models.

"To be a feminist you don't have to base your decisions around what's right for women as a whole."
Ah. I was about to address this, then realized that it wouldn't be appropriate on this thread- bugger! Fancy starting another one so we can talk about it?