To thick for feminism?

Bertrand you and I clearly meet very different men. You didn't think any would start a thread this way either.

I've only ever dated men who were committed to being CF. they hear just as much "you're selfish" "you're unnatural" etc as I do. And they're often blamed for"making " their partner "miss out" on kids and we are all questioned about why we don't want them, regardless of gender or sexuality.

I think I see a lot of these issues as part of something other than feminism and something that men can and do participate in. Of course there's loads of overlap in any campaigning area and it can be helpful.

You know, I don't think I have ever heard a man being labelled anything for being CF, except to be sympathized with, because it's obviously their wives who are denying them children (true fact- I have heard variations on that several times!)

Also, in terms of childfree feminist action, then the outstanding example is that good, safe, reliable access to contraception and abortion are an absolute must, and that's a core part of feminist action.

Yes, apologies I do know CF is quite specific - I tend to call myself that because I found out children weren't possible when I was still fence-sitting, tending towards a CF stance anyway, and I very much prefer it to childless (I don't lack anything and am perfectly content to be where i am)

I still do think women get more of a hard time for being CF. It's certainly been my experience and that of my CF friends, and my reading of it is because it's "failing" a requirement of womanhood - women "ought" to be maternal and if you're not, then sheesh, what's WRONG with you?? But if you haven't experienced that, then I'm glad!

Freshwater, I know.

But I tend to see childfree as a whole separate thing not linked to feminism. I also know men who are labelled in all kinds of ways for being CF so I've never linked it to feminism.

Again, easier to say I'm CF because like atheist, there's a core accepted and understood meaning.

Lorelei, I'm childfree too so when it comes to matters of feminism relating to motherhood, while I'll chip in now and again, it's not my main area of focus. But there's still loads of feminism left to do that isn't that. Right off the bat, there's the issue that if you don't have children, as a woman certain assumptions are made about you that would never be made about a man. I've been quizzed by a dizzying array of people about my lack of offspring, from friends to family to healthcare providers to perfect strangers, often in quite accusatory and judgemental terms.

While not having children wasn't a choice I exactly freely made (very severe endometriosis and adenomyosis put paid to any ambition in that area), the fact that I just shrugged my shoulders and said "Oh well, childfree it is then" and chucked myself into enjoying the life I've been given, appalled some people. I've been accused of not being "normal", of with-holding the opportunity for children from my husband (I didn't and he wasn't bothered anyway), of missing the entire point of life, of not knowing what love is...I've been told I "should" have had IVF, fostered, adopted, tried harder, not had the hysterectomy that gave me my life back....I could go on. Not one person has ever said any of this to my husband, just to me.

My point is that not being a mother is just one more opportunity for women to get it wrong - you don't get an exemption from the business of being the child-rearing class if you don't have children, you've just failed to live up to the standard in a different way!

Bertrand, I was on a forum before this one, mostly male and yes, they would have started a thread by saying they might be too thick to understand something.

For the record, it isn't MN where I have found that people equate feminism and parenthood, it's in real life I've found that.

I didn't know I would be welcomed on MN until a parent friend told me about it and a childfree friend chimed in saying she was a regular poster too. I was also attracted by the fiction forum. I find Goodreads etc can be a bit odd but I really enjoy a more honest chat where you can include spoilers and talk stuf through properly.

"I do not agree with male and female brains. I object to the pinkification of girls, and the stereotyping of activities as belonging to one or the other. (as a child I did ballet and gymnastics - neither of which was easy - but also loved building lego and climbing trees and had permanently skinned knees for a while). I have no idea what people mean when they say they've "always felt like a woman" despite being 40 next year, I just feel like me."

Me too, except the ballet and gymanastic bit. And I'm a few years older than you.

Margaret Atwood, "Writing the Male Character", reprinted here

Dh and I were talking about all this the other day - me having reached "peak trans" and having been called a TERF because I posted that "if gender is non-binary, how can anyone be trans" and the fact that I don't really identify as feminist, so how can I be a TERF anyway.

I will use anyone's preferred name and pronouns - because that's being polite. I prefer unisex bathrooms (single cubicle with sink inside) for all, because they're just easier - particularly at certain times of the month. However, I think that people are conflating gender and sex, and particularly when it comes to women's rights to a safe space (FFS, even typing that makes me cringe internally) I think that the trans issue is a load of men coming in with their menz-are-teh-best-and-know everything and overruling what women want or need. I do not agree with male and female brains. I object to the pinkification of girls, and the stereotyping of activities as belonging to one or the other. (as a child I did ballet and gymnastics - neither of which was easy - but also loved building lego and climbing trees and had permanently skinned knees for a while). I have no idea what people mean when they say they've "always felt like a woman" despite being 40 next year, I just feel like me. I wear a dress/skirt on about half a dozen occasions a year, if that. I very rarely wear make-up. I am generally found in jeans/cords and walking boots.

I think that if I had been a teenager now, I would've found it difficult not to identify as trans. I wore men's jeans (levi 501s) with doc marten boots. My "blouses" for school were men's shirts (much better cotton content so held ironing better, and weren't see through!). I didn't enjoy the whole "bitching girls" conversations. Men have it FAR easier than women...who wouldn't want that.

Who was it who said that men are worried that women might laugh at them, and women are worried that men might kill them?

What, melinda, do you think it's because they might get death threats? Or have their faces photoshopped onto picture of genitalia? Or because people might say they are on their way round to rape them? Surely not...............

And an interesting observation it is too, Bertrand. On the other hand, I can't think of many discussion forums where men feel too intimidated to join in the conversation in the first place. If in doubt we can always bullshit our way through a discussion - thank the lord for google.....

I'd like to second TheWoman's post about how many women (and some men) come to feminism when they have children. How you are treated as a pregnant woman, as a new mother, as a mother of toddler, as a mother of school children etc etc. I could write a book about it.

But feminism is not just about parenthood. Maybe it's a bit biased here because it's mumsnet and probably majority of posters are parents? But also because in my experience at the workplace lots of people seem to want to believe that women's career obstacles are entirely due to them having babies. This way they can "solve" the problem by offering child care or say that it's your choice without tackling the systematic discrimination that goes on.

Just an observation- can anyone imagine any circumstances where a group of men would join in a discussion starting by saying how thick they are?

as is so often the case, I find myself understanding the points made and agreeing - but they don't change the complexity (to my mind) of saying "I'm a feminist". I find "I believe in equal rights" to be better understood in the real world.

"equal rights" feels like I'm giving the same simple explanation of myself as I am when I say "I'm an atheist".

but now I'm repeating myself so I will stop.

...but by no means is it the only big issue!!

Many women report first encountering sexism when they get pregnant or after having a baby. This can be both at work and at home. A low proportion of families share childcare and housework equally between parents. That probably contributes to motherhood being a big feminist issue.

Hadn't even realised this wasn't called feminism and women's rights any more - thanks Melinda!

I think the "this is what a feminist looks like" t-shirt campaign was an attempt to de-demonise feminism and take it into the mainstream. But I don't think it was ever especially conducive to a better public understanding - even before Theresa May wore one.

" I feel like I've been told for not understanding something, again, and that people aren't willing to explain it." I agree that this is no way to further public debate. But sometimes you'll get trolls on feminist sites professing to "not understand" something, but they're really just there to provoke a reaction and waste everyone's time and energy. So some online feminists tend to shoot first and answer questions later, which is a shame.

Being childfree myself, I'm not terribly aware of feminist parenting discussions, so I tend to concentrate more on the ideology behind and consequences of gendered divisions of labour - but you know, rich fucking tapestry and all that...

PS well, my understanding of feminism is that it's quite focused on parenthood stuff - I may have misunderstood!

see, even posting about what I don't understand is confusing.

Melinda, thanks for the FWR explanation.

another thought - then we get campaigns like the T shirt that said "this is what a feminist looks like" and I feel like I've been told for not understanding something, again, and that people aren't willing to explain it.

then there's the issue of being childfree and feeling that feminism is heavily focused on issues that I see as being issues belonging to parents rather than "women".