Can you be for gender equality but not a feminist?

Swan, surely it's not about not being able to make choices and more about the things that influence those choices?

I could choose not to say bless you when someone sneezes but my conditioned response is to do so. The sneezer usually then says thank you. Even though we are often both atheists!

Back to an earlier discussion, Selective Service registration is not tied to voting in the US. Voting is mainly a matter of state law (subject to constitutional and civil rights protections); Selective Service is federal.

Lass: "I hate the term "performing femininity " I expect it will be patiently explained to me it's not meant to be offensive,it's just a means of explaining conditioning."

I can't patiently explain anything as I don't know what the offensive part is. As I understand it, the concept merely suggests that an individual's gender identity can be conflicted and unstable and that we all engage in actions that obscure this instability and produce the impression of a single and unified gender identity.

"Conditioning" imo has nothing to do with it. I do realise that some people do take this behaviourist view of identity and gender identity in particular, but I don't think the idea that we are so overexposed to incredibly circumscribed gender roles that we are no longer able to make choices for ourselves is a particularly helpful one. I think it's a hell of a lot more complicated than that.

Freshwater - I don't think my friend would disagree at all with you.

In fact she feels very conflicted. She agrees with everything you said but the evidence is there of what happened to her career and almost all of her high flying female contemporaries who began careers in the City in the 1980s and were eventually forced out while male contemporaries went on to have promotions and mega bonuses.

She knows that her daughters will face the same discrimination and never make the levels of pay and career they deserve with their qualifications that they are working hard for rigt now. In truth she has a great husband and her daughters will do very well compared to the vast majority but she is very unhappy with the career she was forced to settle for and works for a fraction of what she should be earning. She feels very cheated and sees women who did nothing for the wealth and lifestyle they have other than marrying well.

Really,she is despairing that marrying well can still 'earn' a woman more than she can earn for herself.

I know Xenias posts very well - everyone's life is different but on average women still marry 'up' for a good reason. Every woman that marries 'up' is enjoying the benefit of her husband being paid more than he should because a woman earns less or has her job taken away all together. If women were allowed to compete fairly men would earn less on average.

Economically, equality means that men would earn less and women would earn more. In practice, th eeconomy would benefit by having the best people doing the jobs on offer - but men would lose out and that is a very hard political message to sell.The majority of people believe deep down that to make society function men should have jobs and earn more than women.

Lass at my school, in the late 80s early 90s, I was discouraged from doing Physics A level because the particular teacher who taught it was horrifically sexist. No girl had done Physics A level the whole time I'd been at the school. I'd suffered my GCSE physics lessons where he would never direct a question at any of the girls, didn't care if we weren't on task, and didn't bother if we didn't come over to watch the demonstrations. It was blatant. Fortunately I had enough self confidence to barge in amongst the boys and force him to acknowledge me, but none of the other girls did. The thought of putting up with that for two years of A level was enough to put me off, sadly. I sometimes wish I'd been up for that fight too, but at 15/16 I just wanted a teacher that actually appreciated me.

I'd be interested to know if you think I am wrong about this, and that this was not sexism or perhaps whether I am lying or exaggerating? Or if you think it's sufficiently long ago that it couldn't possibly happen today, and therefore it's irrelevant? (That particular teacher has retired so at least he won't be doing it any more.)

"At the end of the day a lot of the misrepresentation of feminism is wilful."

Or starts that way and rapidly becomes mainstream. I blame Viz!

I am so old I remember the days when "bra burning" was the accusation- "Well, I can't be a feminist, I like wearing a bra"

At least that one has been laid to rest..........

At the end of the day a lot of the misrepresentation of feminism is wilful.

Even over the sex attacks in cologne, where the right wing fascists' interests are for once aligned with feminism, they cannot bring themselves to agree with us and blame us for letting migrants in.

People look for holes because they want to pick something apart.

Hiya Lass! I went to a Scottish comprehensive and was discouraged from doing maths and spent the whole of my higher year facing this face whenever I walked through the door of the Chemistry lab.

Just saying. Just because something didn't happen to you, doesn't mean it isn't happening to girls and women.

And while I didn't read the thread about drag, feminists can be wrong. They can say dodgy things, rude things, just skimmed the thread and gone off on a tangent things, they have their hotspots and their prejudices, just the same as everyone else. I think that's allowed.

"And the FWR regular who said she found drag queens offensive but not as offensive as the way some women perform femininity was just making an observation as opposed to judging women (those xx real women who apparently get being a woman wrong )."

I can't comment on this because I wasn't on the thread- but are you really saying you don't want to call yourself a feminist because you disagree with what a feminist said? Surely not?

I think beta needs to speak to Xenia, she'd soon set her right!

But beta, a successful career isn't just measured in how much money you make!

What about accomplishment, satisfaction, meaning, pride, independence, self-actualisation...your friend has spectacularly missed the point.

Also, what if the husbands of those unqualified women up and leave them? How would they be better off then? Bloody hell, I feel sorry for her daughters. I hope they prove her wrong.

Pointing out that people are "performing femininity" isn't saying that those people are stupid.

It's just an observation on the social forces thst exist. Very few people act as if society has no effect on them

And the FWR regular who said she found drag queens offensive but not as offensive as the way some women perform femininity was just making an observation as opposed to judging women (those xx real women who apparently get being a woman wrong ).

"However, Fellowes dissuaded her from the profession and suggested that she "marry a lawyer" instead.""

On average Fellowes is right.

Not only do actors on average get paid very little and often out of work but female actors get paid less than male actors on average.

A female friend was discussing this phenomenon the other day in despair.

She did very well at university and entered the work force as a high flyer believing that she was going to have the same opportunities to earn and have a career as their male contemporaries. Now 30 years later, she is questioning why she should tell her daughters to work hard, get good qualifications and get a career. She knows women her age who do't have her qualifications, married an investment banker and immediately stopped working to have children and support his career. She knows they are far better off than she is. Her husband has his own business but earns less than she does.

She honestly feels she is misleading her daughters and would be far better to tell them to marry an investment banker or high paid lawyer rather than fight an uphill battle to build their own career.

Lass- I do hope I'm not going to infuriate you- but I really want to address your points individually, I apologise in advance if you think I'm being an arse.

"I really can't be bothered being permanently on the look out for something to be offended by. (Omg someone called me a lady or a lass, or someone told they liked what I'm wearing)

There is a lot of mythology about this. But basically, the names we have for things are important. If you habitually use an infantilising term, like "girls", to describe one group and not for another, then it invades your thinking. So, if you talk about men and girls- the women are lower down the pecking order than the men are. If people talked about boys and girls, then not so much. But people don't. And I don't think anyone has ever said they were offended by somebody telling them they like what they are wearing. Unless it is accompanied by a leer down the cleavage. Which is sometimes is- followed but a wide eyed innocent "But I was only saying I like your top".

I am irritated by posts making excuses for appalling behaviour by women, because poor thing, she's a victim too.

I think what often happens here is a failure on both sides to distinguish between explanation and excusing. But this doesn't just apply to women. It is practically impossible to discuss why somebody behaves in an appalling way without being accused of excusing the behaviour

I'm so fed up of posters saying that they despair because their daughters want to wear girly things (there was one just a few days ago)

Yep- sometimes people are a bit daft about this. But the relentless marketing of pink sparkly princess stuff to girls is enough to do anyone's head in!

I can't take posts seriously which say things like women aren't seen as human; or that girls are discouraged from doing maths (goodness knows where you went to school, certainly wasn't a Scottish comprehensive. Mine was so desperate to improve its pass rate every one who had the slightest hope was encouraged to)

Not sure about the women not being seen as human-don't think I've seen that. Certainly the word human has been taken to mean male and that women as anomaly- this has happened in medical research, where the physical differences between men and women are been ignored in drug trials. Is that what you mean? And as for girls and Maths- you only have to frequent the education boards on here for a day or so to find somebody coming out with the boys are better at Maths line. That mindset must surely have an effect? Why do you think there are fewer women than men in STEM generally?

I can't be bothered by threads complaining about "wife-work". Don't do it then. You all seem bright enough and know your own minds.

it's not usually feminists complaining about doing "wife work". It's posters detailing hideously unbalanced family lives, and feminists (and others) telling them, in various ways and with various levels of sensitivity "not to do it then"! Your're most definitely in the feminist camp on this one

Or other givens such as how women aren't taken seriously in the work place or their ideas aren't listened to. Bears no resemblance to any office I've worked in.

But it does bear a strong resemblance to the offices lots of other people work in. My dp spends time in lots of different organizations as part of his work- he's a sort of management consultant. I just checked, and he reckons that in at least 60% of the assessments he makes he talks about the way the women within the organization are treated. Not in terms of legislation- they've all got that sorted- but in "softer" measures

Personally, I feel it is possible to recognise the injustice that some groups still experience, to analyse the historical and contemporary origins and expressions of inequality and strive to end them without accepting the label or assumptions of a particular movement. Indeed, I believe a holistic approach to the improvement of the human experience is a more morally appropriate for the genuine pursuit of justice, though I'd certainly never criticise those who believe a narrower perspective produces more tangible results.

But Bert I don't agree with with what "everything feminism stands" for- certainly not with a great deal of what is presented on here which I find infantilising.

ChocChocPorridge I don't recognise your username so have no idea if I've misinterpreted anything you have said.

That would make a bit of sense though Bertrand. The Conservatives are atleast an organised political party with policies and a leader. There is no chief feminist and no set of policies that you have to support if you are a feminist.

It would be more like saying "I don't like that Boris, so I am having nothing more to do with the word 'conservative'.

No more Conservative party and no more conserving ever - not stately homes, jam, whales, nothing!"

Why is it that people can say " I believe in everything feminism stands for, but somebody on an Internet forum said they were a feminist, and said something I disagree with, so I won't call myself a feminist"? It's very odd. It's the only movement where this happens- nobody says "Well, I believe in everything The Tory party stands for, but I don't like Boris Johnston, so I won't call myself a Tory"

Do you agree that is the case without having to have the label feminist applied?

Why would I avoid using a word that just clarifies meaning and aids communication? I say 'dog', not four legged medium sized domestic animal that barks. What is offensive about being clear?

if I had to choose between which of the 2 would have anything interesting to say about the female condition Streep wins hands down.

They are actors. They read out lines written by other people and are sometimes interviewed. Unless I knew them personally, I wouldn't presume to ask their advice on anything except acting.

In the rest of the interview Meryl Streep is very clear that women suffer discrimination. She doesn't explain why she wants to avoid using the word feminism, so it's difficult to read much into it.

Pointing out that people are "performing femininity" isn't saying that those people are stupid.

It's just an observation on the social forces thst exist. Very few people act as if society has no effect on them.

Lass, I do find it wearing that you continuously misrepresent what people say.

You can wear what you like. Can you apply some introspection and see that it might have been influenced by society? I like wearing jeans, you don't - but if jeans hadn't been invented, or if this were the 30s, I wouldn't have had the chance to find out that I like wearing jeans, thus, society would have influenced me. That is what is meant.

Similarly performing femininity which you hate so much. You are clearly a naturally western feminine person, who enjoys what society has decided women in this country should wear. Perhaps you'd not enjoy wearing what women in a tribe in the Brazilian rainforest would wear though. If you were in that society, and had to dress in a tribal manner to fit in, despite it not really being what you liked, you would be performing femininity. Personally, I don't enjoy wearing dresses and prefer trousers. You are the opposite, that's fine, but at school I was forced to 'perform femininity' and wear a skirt because it was declared that girls looked bad in trousers. That can't be right can it?

I note this anecdote about Carey Mulligan:

"During Mulligan's final year at Woldingham School, actor/screenwriter Julian Fellowes delivered a lecture at her school on the production of the film Gosford Park. Mulligan briefly talked to Fellowes after the lecture and asked him for advice on an acting career. However, Fellowes dissuaded her from the profession and suggested that she "marry a lawyer" instead. "

Yep, sexism against women is nailed. Fellowes would absolutely have made that comment to a male pupil in his late teens...

I didn't mean it was surprising time wise. I meant if I had to choose between which of the 2 would have anything interesting to say about the female condition Streep wins hands down.

That doesn't really address the point. As for issues that affect women, the items I listed affect women. They seem to be straight forward views which any decent human would support. Do you agree that is the case without having to have the label feminist applied?

Most posters on here hate the term cis. I hate the term "performing femininity " I expect it will be patiently explained to me it's not meant to be offensive,it's just a means of explaining conditioning.

Except it isn't. That became clear to me in a thread about drag queens (theme -they are generally awful unless they were being banned by trans activists in which case they become less awful ) where that condescending Butler quote about performing femininity being just like drag was trotted out. Compounded by one poster saying she didn't like drag queens , although some weren't as bad as the way some women "performed femininity" which passed unremarked - basically it said there are women being the wrong sort of women.

I suppose it's linked to the being too thick for feminism. What I wear, what I look like and my preferences. According to feminism , no they aren't but I'm too thick to realise I'm performing femininity unlike all the enlightened feminists.

Interestingly this was at the time the vacuous Carey Mulligan declared she was

Whether or not you think Carey Mulligan is 'vacuous', it's hardly surprising that they were both asked about feminism while doing press for the film Suffragette.

(I suspect all the actors were so bored of the question by the end of doing interviews that they were tempted to say, "actually, I like to call myself a philatelist")