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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can you be for gender equality but not a feminist?

257 replies

TanithDaUnicorn · 17/01/2016 23:15

I am completely for equality of all people ragardless of gender, sexuality, race, etc. But I don't like being a "Feminist" Mainly because in my opinion it focuses on Gender above anything else, and the fact that there are a lot of double standards when it comes to it.

What is your opinion? Am I sexist simply because I don't want to be considered a feminist?

OP posts:
slugseatlettuce · 18/01/2016 20:51

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scallopsrgreat · 18/01/2016 20:51

Reproductive rights? What reproductive rights don't men have? Women have far less reproductive rights than men. Especially in the US. What child 'custody' right don't men have? (It isn't called custody any more. Children aren't possessions).

No idea about federal and state programs (whatever they are).

Feel free to fight for banning circumcision. Won't get any argument here. But it isn't the same as FGM.

bbpp · 18/01/2016 20:50

For child custody: in most (51%) of cases, both parents decided on their own (out of court) that the mother was to receive full custody
in 29% of custody cases, the decision was made without any third party involvement
in 91% of cases, the decision for the mother to have custody was made without court involvement
of those who go to court, 70% of men who seek custody of their child receive it
of those 70%, 1/3 of the cases cited domestic abuse as part of the reason for divorce
women who mention having been victims of domestic abuse in court are less likely to receive custody of their children than women who didn’t

perfectlyfine · 18/01/2016 20:48

OP, just considering a few of your points...

Child custody: I think there has been quite a lot of progress towards equality on this aspect of separation, but agree there is some way to go, however, surely any inequalities were a hangover from the expectation of women to be domestic servants in the first place? And if there is still that expectation (which I think there is) then it would follow that child custody goes in their favour?

Reproductive rights (To choose parenthood) - I don't think women have equality here at all. Many women are denied access to contraception and have absolutely no choice in pregnancy/parenthood, which is a far greater biological and sometimes social burden to them.
Genital mutilation protection: Are you saying women are protected against this?
woman can access federal and state programs: not sure what you mean?
and vote in elections without agreeing to die: ?
More leniency in courts, especially when it comes to sexual assault: Do you mean as perpetrators? Assuming it gets to court are women as victims of sexual assault more or less likely than men to see their assailant convicted?

TanithDaUnicorn · 18/01/2016 20:48

The supreme court has recognised it as a personal right of woman to choose Parenthood, in other words, if a Man wants a baby and a woman doesn't, tough shit, if a man doesn't want it and the woman does, tough shit.

This isn't exactly equality, and I would like you to cite the study for this so called "Wage gap" Because I haven't seen a reliable study so far showing accurate results. Also, bodily autonomy? What do you mean by this?

OP posts:
slugseatlettuce · 18/01/2016 20:44

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perfectlyfine · 18/01/2016 20:33

I was pretty horrified recently to see some comments from fb "friends" - male and female - on an article about women's retirement age/pensions being postponed until they are 65, but only having been given warning of this around 2 years ago (i.e. very close to when they thought they would retire).

It was all this vitriol about wanting equality when it suits "us" and that its our own fault for "banging on about equality" but not liking it when we finally get it. And then claiming to support equal rights.

The thing is, the article was simply critical about the fact that a decision had been made in 1995 yet women were not informed of these changes until sometimes just months before they'd expected to retire. Women who had worked most of their lives being paid less than, having fewer opportunities than and far more domestic responsibilities than their male counterparts.

I'm not sure how the inequalities in retirement age could have been addressed fairly but it did feel like a double blow to these women who would have been sorted into needlework and housewifery school as 12 year olds.

TheWomanInTheWall · 18/01/2016 20:33

Feminist ally or feminist supporter work fine, bear, chap and Dervel!

Feminists tend not to tell other women to die, OP!

TanithDaUnicorn · 18/01/2016 20:32

Not to sound like an MRA, but Child custody, reproductive rights (To choose parenthood) Genital mutilation protection, woman can access federal and state programs, and vote in elections without agreeing to die, men do not. More leniency in courts, especially when it comes to sexual assault.

Those are 4 rights that women have that men don't. But again, I'm not picking sides, I'm completely in the middle pointing out facts when they crop up.

You are probably thinking "Omg picking men over your own gender blah blah" If you are one of these people, you are not capable of intelligent unbiased discussion and I would appreciate if you just ignored this thread, I am open to debate and discussion, but don't try to push me into a box where I do not fit. Anyway, thanks for the consideration.

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HermioneWeasley · 18/01/2016 20:16

The reality is that it is women who are unequal to men. If you are against that and working to address th balance, I don't think it matters massively what you call yourself.

slugseatlettuce · 18/01/2016 20:13

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merrymouse · 18/01/2016 20:07

Honestly, looking at the world today women still require quite a bit more advocacy than men.

It would be exhausting if every time you advocated for women you had to say "oh and men deserve the same rights too", and often a bit redundant.

TanithDaUnicorn · 18/01/2016 19:52

It's just how the definition is worded. "the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes" It specifically says "Woman" to me seems a bit too one sided

I prefer Egalitarian, it's definition is much more broad. "believing in or based on the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities"

If I'm honest I was expecting to be attacked with "Omg you're not a feminist? Die!" Lol. But thanks for the feedback

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SirVixofVixHall · 18/01/2016 19:34

I find it hard to grasp that any adult woman would not call herself a feminist tbh.

ABetaDad1 · 18/01/2016 19:31

I was once very firmly told on here that being an 'equalist' is not the same as being a 'feminist' and that men can't be feminist but they can be equalist.

That said, most women believe they are and should be equal to a man but fewer describe themselves as feminists.

Dervel · 18/01/2016 19:24

I'm a man, and certainly not a feminist however on such a large number of issues I find myself in agreement with feminists it's ultimately a moot point.

MrsTerryPratchett · 18/01/2016 18:28

There are different camps about whether men (or any dominant group) can be part of the struggle, rather than an ally. I think what matters massively more is whether they actually are an ally (rather than mansplaining it or doing it to be 'cool').

IME people who talk about equality, over feminism, tend to fight for neither.

It's like all the hateful men who magically turn into feminists whenever Islam is mentioned. They don't actually care about women, they just really don't like Muslims.

HelpfulChap · 18/01/2016 14:22

AgeingArtemis

That's what I try and do, be supportive of Feminist ideals but not be so presumptuous as to call myself one.

gandalf456 · 18/01/2016 14:17

That IS feminism. You don't want to be defined as such because of the stereotypes that exist with regards to feminism so it sounds as if you have misjudged what it means and disassociated yourself from it. There is no reason to because feminism is basically what you believe in.

0phelia · 18/01/2016 14:17

It's not possible for a man to be a feminist because all of their experience will be limited to secondary experience, theoretical, observed / read about. A man will have no lived experience of opression against women.

A man may have his own experience of opression, but this is not a feminists battle.

0phelia · 18/01/2016 14:14

It is not possible to truly analyse and break down the opressive concept of gender, with the goal of equality for the sexes, without being a feminist.

AgeingArtemis · 18/01/2016 14:12

dancingbear and HelpfulChap, personally I don't see anything wrong with men calling themselves feminists, as long as they REALLY are feminists!

I see way to many men claiming to be feminists, but who have some decidedly un-feminist views and it drives me nuts!

Maybe to be on the safe side you could say you "support feminism"

0phelia · 18/01/2016 14:09

*number of

0phelia · 18/01/2016 14:08

Feminists don't focus on "gender"
A huge number if feminists recognise "gender" to be part of an oppressive social structure to opress women.
Many feminists argue that indeed both sexes should be equal, but we have different needs based in biology.

The differences and inequalities come from sex not gender.

thedancingbear · 18/01/2016 13:59

As a man I am totally for gender equality but I'm not sure I would have the right to call myself a feminist.

This is exactly the boat I find myself in; from what I can work out there are opposing camps on whether men can use the 'feminist' tag. I'm not sure that this matters though - after all, it's not about me