God, this is depressing

Women are judged - by other women - if their house is untidy/dirty.

I know my mil would judge me if the house would messy, but so would fil. I've heard them both talk about how awful it is that their other sil doesn't do their son's laundry or buy his Christmas and birthday presents (as in, the ones for his family).

I used to think they meant she would not wash even a sock of his if it ended up with her clothes and that if he said "Can you help me pick a present for my mum?" she'd refuse, and I thought that was mean. However, I've since realised they mean sil and bil share household tasks between them instead of sil doing it all. I assume they think I do everything for dp, or they talk about how hard dp has it too!

Women are judged - by other women - if their house is untidy/dirty. Men are not. I can remember my MIL many years ago complaining that they'd called in at BIL's house and "SIL hadn't even made the beds"

My DPs always complained about the state of our house and my DB's house. They complained to me and about SIL. Never to DH and about DB.

I have 3 grown up DSs who were mainly brought up by DH, who never had to do anything because he said it was quicker to do it himself. Two of them throw their rubbish everywhere and don't pick anything up. One is married to a DIL who doesn't do anything at all.

The other DS hates stuff and mess and is always tidy. Grown up DD is the same, yet wasn't raised to do housework either.

Brought up not to do housework as a chikd

Supposed to tidy my bedroom but my dad used to do it

Had to help lay the table in turns with my brother, who was smacked once for saying it was womans work

House hold chores eventually shared between working parents

When i married dh and i shared all the chores, i do more than him now as i am home more

I still dont do all the chores and when i say something needs doing DIY or chore wise he does it.

Partly luck and partly not understanding why i have to do everything...oh and laziness on my part

My dad was "complaining" that his new Dyskn is pink...and it suddenly occured to me that its because its a womans tool

I want a pink chainsaw...actually scratch that, i just want the chainsaw...no reason really

My dad used to call my mum a 'slut'
( in the old fashioned sense of being slovenly) as she wasn't very house proud. He never lifted a finger around the house, apart from doing the garden.

Most of my partners have been much tidier and cleaner than me, I hate housework which I think comes from seeing my mum being a domestic drudge. I have had a couple of boyfriends though who made a hash of cooking ( on purpose I later discovered!) so that I would do it. I definitely agree women are more harshly judged than men on their ability to 'keep a good house' (yuk).

I agree Thurlow with your last paragraph, but when he just won't, what then?

I think one of the great benefits of cohabitation being socially acceptable is that you can find this stuff out before settling down. If I moved in with a partner who did nothing around the house or suddenly stopped and expected me to, then I'd know not to pursue the relationship (unless he genuinely sorted himself out).

I know that doesn't help anyone in existing relationships with "he doesn't see dirt" types but hopefully more and more women of the future will have higher expectations of their partners. I agree some women need to stand back as well and not get fixated on doing things their way, and definitely not get a babysitter when they already have a husband at home! How ridiculous!

Hopefully more mothers will stop running around after their sons too. My own mum runs around after my man-child brother who still lives with her so much it makes me feel sick. She irons his shirts, makes him lunch for work, cooks his dinner and breakfast. She does all cleaning around the home. This is a woman who was the higher-earner in a good career while she was married, we had a cleaner because my dad was a lazy arse.

I don't understand why she is treating my brother like this after knowing how lazy my dad was, or why she expressed shock that I don't iron my dp's pants when she didn't bring me up that way. confused]

I don't think you can completely blame mother's though. My dp's mum did everything for them, but he still is a capable, functional adult able to take care of himself and does not expect me to do more than my fair share of the housework.

What did these couples do before children? I expect it was more equal.

I think it's more attitudes towards those at home caring for a small child. It is not really work so you have to justify being at home. A lot of people who have not been at home with said small child often can't believe how you can constantly be busy yet achieve nothing hence the 'what did you do all day?' I saw an awful thread here with the same attitude from a woman who went out to work, with the husband at home. Many comments agreed with her too.

I always said I did not work part time to clean the house but to care for the children

"Also, can you just imagine the uproar if a man came on here and said 'my wife is lazy and incompetent at housework'? I can't see MNetters saying 'oh but you're letting her get away with it'."

Why not, if he said that he was doing it all himself and looking after the children and she dumped dirty plates next to the dishwasher for him to load?

No I agree. And just realised I didn't read the third paragraph of the op :o

But isn't this just putting the blame on women for men's failings (nam)?
Why is it up to the partner to change her man? I agree it's up to the mother - but his father too. Plus of course a personal responsibility

This was true of the majority of the six families they followed, with Jill Demirel, from Beckenham, at her wit's end at having to clean up after her husband and three sons - all while dressed in her finery.
'I try to look good as well because these days mums have to. This is why men have affairs because they go to women who look good,' she said.
She even goes as far as to vacuums and scrubs the floors in en evening gown with full make-up on.

Is this for real?!

I despair. I have just seen an advert for
Cancer research. The man jokes that when he entered remission he bought himself a motorbike and his wife, sitting next to him, a toaster. Now I realise that this is not 'real life' but the fact that the charity thinks that this is funny, is soul destroying.

I truly believe that these attitudes won't stop until women stop pandering to men. So what if he can't cook - he can learn, so what if he can't turn on a washing machine- he can wear filthy clothes until he puts them in a machine and presses a couple of buttons.

Stealing from another thread, but a good way of deciding whether expectations are too high is to imagine what would happen if both people adopted the lower standards.

• Would the family eat nutritious meals?
• Would the children be clean and in clean clothes?
• Would there be clean crockery to eat off?
• Would the house be in a clean enough state to not concern a SW?
• Would adults remain presentable enough (through clean clothes) for work?

I agree Thurlow with your last paragraph, but when he just won't, what then?

I think certain household jobs need doing once a week at least. My DH disagrees. So if I ask him to do someting and he says 'I don't think it needs doing' you do rather reach an impasse. It's not like there's a rulebook. Therefore if I want it done I have to do it myself. I know MN is keen to say LTB But most of us are not going to do that if he has 1001 other things going for him and overall you're happy.

Also, can you just imagine the uproar if a man came on here and said 'my wife is lazy and incompetent at housework'? I can't see MNetters saying 'oh but you're letting her get away with it'.

I think your point 2 goes further than those couples with a sahp. I believe it starts as soon as maternity leave begins and in many cases continues when the woman returns to work.

In some cases I think the whole "Oh my husband is so useless" is actually the woman refusing to let the man do things because "He does them wrong/not the way I do etc". I know one woman who left a get together early because her sister was babysitting. When asked where her husband was, she said he was at home but she wanted her sister there to make sure he did everything right! Her dc is 2 days older than DD2 and we're going to be returning to work at a similar time. I just know she'll be broken trying to do everything but she won't let him "help".

How far do other posters go along with the housework (in a shored home) is a form of caring school of thought? I ask - apologies if this wouldn't be a Q you'd ask Thurlow? I ask because women are much more likely to do all sorts of caring from full time children, sick, elderly to little acts of care like sending cards and presents, asking how things are going etc.

I would be interested to know how much relationship status makes a difference?

When I was early twenties I lived in a shared house with 3 men of the same age. I took over the room from another man (we were all friends). It was a typical shared house, most of the time it was clean and tidy. Each bedroom reflected the general attitudes of the owner and levels of tidiness etc. No difference when they had a partner or were single.

The single men that I know, all live in immaculate homes, no exceptions.

The only homes I've been in that were awful in terms of hygiene were those belonging to married couples.

Do these men who manage to live independently and in lovely home environments when single, suddenly lose the ability when they marry?

Also worth factoring in that people who are happy to wash their dirty linen in public (literally in the case of this TV programme) and like their 15 minutes of fame may not be entirely typical.

NB I am not disagreeing with any of the above comments

no the responsibility when you are an adult is on you - if you choose to be lazy that is your choice others may facilitate that but you still make that choice

i never did anything growing up, i was allowed to iron once (soon got bored) i was occasionally allowed to make a simple meal, i probably washed up more times at friends houses, i don't remember ever hovering or putting a wash on

unusual circumstances i went to live with me grandparents when i was 4 and for the first few years my nanny was working so my granddad did the cooking, clearing up, ironing etc (not all) then once my nanny retired she did everything and hated anyone else doing anything that was her role

i left home at 17 and managed, it was installed in me that i am capable i think that is the difference and all partners i have been with i expect them to share household chores, not all have wanted to but they have it wasn't really up for discussion - one did expect me to iron his work shirts and was genuinely shocked when i questioned him why he thinks i would want to

It is a mix of all these factors definitely and I grapple with what is actually the root of it all.

Using my own friends and family as exemplars, I agree that men are far more likely than women to be quite happy living in stinking squalor. I am not happy living in stinking squalor so I do far more than my fair share of housework, but a perhaps part of this is the fear of my mother turning up and going apeshit at me about it and calling me a lazy madam. Despite the fact I'm almost 50

It is not funny though. I have sons and I they are expected to pull their weight in the house. But I still foreesee the cycle perpetuating itself through the generations.

My wealthy and retired ex-PIL would never lift a finger to help us when the children were young and when we were both working FT and were were really struggling. Now we are divorced and exH lives on his own MIL goes round to his house twice a week and does all his housework and cleaning and prepares his meals 'because he's so busy and he needs to relax'.

I do most of the housework as I WFH, but DH has a much lower mess-and-muck threshold than I do, so ends up doing things when he's at home.

The idea of 'negative programming' is interesting. To an extent you have to be taught to a) see what needs doing and b) how to do it. Otherwise you grow into a perpetual 12 yr old, leaving a trail of dirty plates and smelly socks behind you. Women are still more likely to be taught both a) and b) than their brothers - and, yes, to internalise it.

feel better about mine - yes, have clearly internalised the idea that women ought to be homemakers. The four women I know whose homes are as messy as mine are all IMO very intelligent interesting women. Hmmmm.