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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is there a conflict between PC speech codes and the need to name sources of misogynistic violence?

263 replies

OTheHugeManatee · 12/01/2016 10:21

I've been following debates around the 'trans' issue on FWR with interest for some time. More recently I've also been appalled by the mass sexual attacks in Cologne and the related issue of the stilted, minimising way those attacks have been discussed - particularly in the left-leaning press.

It's got me wondering about possible conflicts between PC speech codes and feminist analysis. I think this is a feature of both these issues. To be clear, by 'PC speech codes' I mean the cultural taboos that make it socially unacceptable to make generalisations about certain groups of people.

In trans debates, trans people are cast as a minority within a minority, and women are re-framed as the ones with privilege who must cede space to ease their suffering. Much of the feminist discussion around this is, as I understand it, devoted to challenging this narrative.

In the Cologne attacks, there was a visible reluctance by left of centre media to be explicit about the cultural/ethnic dimension to the attacks. The implicit view, from some quarters, seems to be that the right of white Western women to move about at night free from sexual assault weighs equally - or even lower - than the right of refugees to be protected from ugly stereotypes and/or racist reprisals, and that therefore the ethnic/cultural dimension of the attacks should be played down lest it exacerbate the suffering of refugees.

Elsewhere though in FWR I've seen robust defenses of the validity and need for generalisations, when it comes to class analysis of gendered violence. As I understand it, it is reasonable and valid to generalise about men as a class, even if NAMALT, because otherwise it is impossible to name the problem.

So what I'm wondering is this: if generalisations about men as a class are defensible in the interests of naming feminist problems, does the same apply to subsets of men? For example if misogynistic violence is a major problem among men of a particular culture in the UK (even relative to the general depressingly high levels of misogynistic violence in the general population, and even if NAM[culture]ALT), are we comfortable spelling that out?

If there are classes of people among whom misogynistic violence is more prevalent than the already high norm in the UK, I want to be able to name the problem. But I think there is often substantial resistance to this. There may well be valid and internally coherent reasons for this, but I think that from a feminist viewpoint we need to think about what's going on here.

I think this is very difficult ground for feminism. I'm loth to give examples, for fear of derailing what's intended as a general musing, but here's a fairly incendiary one. There are persistent and worrying rumours coming out of Sweden that sexual violence against women has skyrocketed in that country in recent years. This is clearly a feminist issue, and one that should surely be tackled vociferously by feminist campaigners. You'd think. However there are also persistent rumours that the overwhelming majority of this violence is perpetrated by recent immigrants of Arab/North African origin. But there is an almost total blackout in the 'respectable' mainstream Swedish press around this; the only news outlets willing to touch it are right-wing outfits such as Breitbart, and frankly bonkers conspiracy mongers like the Gatestone Institute.

The rumours relate to Sweden, but imagine you're a feminist in Sweden hearing these rumours. Do you write it off as lies and hate-mongering? Perhaps it is nothing but lies and hate-mongering. I don't know and can't verify it either way. I hope it is. But perhaps (like Rotherham) it isn't. So should you take a stand for women and say 'I'm going to risk contributing to a right-wing, racist discourse because if there is any possibility that it's true it should be investigated and stamped down on hard, because I want to stick up for the women being assaulted'? Or should we be saying 'Overall I think Swedish women have a pretty easy time of it, considered globally, and I don't want anyone conducting racist pogroms in my name, so I'm going to keep schtum'?

More generally, I am wondering if we need to think explicitly about what, as feminists, we do when there is a conflict between the aims and needs of feminism and those of other 'rights' groups. (It might just be me who needs to think about this; for all I know you've all already worked it out). But I think there are some conflicts, and the Cologne attacks and trans rights thing points to that. And I think there's a general, vague presumption among many people who consider themselves generally right-on that this is not the case, and that all the various needs of the various rights campaigns are either aligned by definition, or can somehow be balanced out. And yet, it seems self-evident to me that the needs of different rights campaigns often conflict; witness trans and women's rights. And when this 'balancing' takes place, again and again it is my observation that it's the rights of women that have to give ground.

My personal stance is that women's rights come first and if there is a conflict between women's rights and another rights campaign I'm for women. But what do others think? I think it's a live issue for feminism, a difficult one (at least difficult for feminists who think of themselves as generally left-wing, anti-racist, right-on etc) and one that I've not seen much discussion on.

OP posts:
TrojanWhore · 13/01/2016 08:03

"Does this mean we turn into UKIP supporters? No"

No, because self-identifying with UKIP would horrify many people.

"It does mean that there is a serious problem which needs to be addressed by education and proactive policing."

UKIP have been on about this for years, it's key to their stance.

The problem with the rhetoric here is people trying to find other words so they can feel better about supporting something that is at the core of UKIP's stance.

Egosumquisum · 13/01/2016 07:56

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TheXxed · 13/01/2016 07:03

That was brilliant post dodo I agree completely.

HelpfulChap · 13/01/2016 06:51

Quite heartening to see that others are having concerns with mass immigration without the continual fear of being called a racist.

Shame it took something like Cologne to remove the veil from their eyes.

BeakyMinder · 13/01/2016 03:57

This is a crisis for liberalism - but it shouldn't be a crisis for feminism. Unless we continue to insist that you have to be a liberal to be a true feminist, that is.

Personally I think feminism can't make much more progress until it can incorporate the perspectives of conservative women. Just look at the trans issue - only way we're going to get that addressed is by engaging with the small c conservative mainstream. No ones listening to Greer, Bindel etc.

I say this a lifelong bleeding hearter starting to get pretty sick of the liberal ghetto, wanting to hear different women's perspectives.

TensionWheelsCoolHeels · 13/01/2016 02:58

Just marking my place here, will come back and read later.

HairyLittleCarrot · 12/01/2016 23:13

When I read threads like this I feel humbled by the cleverness and eloquence of the OP and other posters. I feel quite the prat posting this, but my take on the OP is "should we feel free to tell the truth about harms to women, in good faith as we see it, even if that truth poses problems for other groups?"
And of course the answer is yes.
When we leave a vacuum of discussion someone else fills it. I do not want the far right barmpots to have a monopoly on a truth, such that fair minded people distance themselves from it.
Even broken clocks are right twice a day. And I won't hide a truth because the haters appropriated it for their own causes. I want the truth known so that harm can be prevented. We can't address a problem if we can't name it.

DadWasHere · 12/01/2016 22:48

That is quite a golden egg you laid there Dodo, it articulates in a few words the very heart of the problem.

Siolence · 12/01/2016 22:43

Interesting points OneFlewOverTheDodosNest.

Priority given to young men over over groups because it is known that they will become a risk to society? I can't disagree but it is depressing to read that bad behaviour is rewarded by giving them priority enforcing their belief in their own superiority.

What actions do you think would be effective?

OneFlewOverTheDodosNest · 12/01/2016 22:37

Large numbers of unemployed young men are extremely dangerous to society - it's why historically such a large importance has been placed on providing first jobs for men, apprenticeships and national service when jobs were low. They are also very easily radicalised when they have no proper links to society and will hold on to any ideology that flatters their superiority complex.

By accepting in the men that travel (rather than families and children stuck in refugee camps) Germany has imported large numbers of young, angry men who are likely to be traumatised and of whom a large majority fulfil their ego through assumed superiority over women - whether fellow refugees who they considered property or native women who they consider whores.

Men who think like this are not going to be convinced by nice words, we need to prove that women's rights come first through action.

Siolence · 12/01/2016 22:24

Large groups of disenfranchised people behave in extreme ways. Riots, looting, violence.

The problem I have with the Cologne assaults is that the violence was carried out by men upon women.

Siolence · 12/01/2016 22:20

I don't think you can separate large scale immigration and the never seen before outbreaks of 'taharrush gamea'. Does this mean we turn into UKIP supporters? No. It does mean that there is a serious problem which needs to be addressed by education and proactive policing.

DadWasHere · 12/01/2016 22:15

But how does that explain the sexual assault epidemic in Egypt.

Collapse of rule of law. As control slips you increasingly see what people are.

Egosumquisum · 12/01/2016 22:10

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VikingVolva · 12/01/2016 22:10

I don't think I've ever seen as many posts supporting UKIP policies as I have in the last couple of weeks.

By posters who would probably reject any idea that they are actually in exact harmony with that party.

Siolence · 12/01/2016 22:08

It is a mess in Europe. But I can't help but wonder if the UK coverage of it is quiet to try to avoid even more support for UKIP.

Egosumquisum · 12/01/2016 22:08

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Egosumquisum · 12/01/2016 22:04

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Siolence · 12/01/2016 22:02

The mass assaults are utterly terrifying. It should be getting much more coverage than it is. Organised systematic abuse of women on a huge scale taking place in more than one location and it is not headline news because?

That I don't know. Fear of racial violence?

Egosumquisum · 12/01/2016 21:57

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Siolence · 12/01/2016 21:50

Rotherham - I suspect they wouldn't have sexually abused girls from their own community because those girls would be considered property of their peers. However it's entirely easy to assume that the same type of men are less than stellar husbands and fathers.

Cultural conditioning CANNOT be ignored when looking at violence against women. Whether that is White American frat boys, footballers, wanker bankers in strip clubs, or the horrors in Cologne. Each one of these groups seem to in large groups treat women as less than human.

HermioneWeasley · 12/01/2016 21:31

I've been called islamophobic, a pearl clutcher etc on threads on MN when I've said I have a problem with the huge overlap between Islam and misogyny. That is not to say that all Muslim men hate women - I come from a Muslim country and my family are Muslim - I know this better than most!

If you import a large volume of young men from cultures where women have the same rights and respect as cattle, you're going to have a problem.

Same as Rotherham - race played a part in choosing the victims - they wouldn't have dreamt of abusing girls in their own community. White, working class girls were dismissed as trash by the abusers AND the authorities supposed to protect them.

As with the trans debate, not hurting the feeling of men massively outweighed the safety of women.

MyFavouriteClintonisGeorge · 12/01/2016 21:17

Shallishanti, this article that I also posted on another thread, makes similar points.

By taking only the people who manage to turn up, and not the refugees in most need in a more proactive way (e.g. going and finding them in refugee camps in the region) we are ending up with an unfair 'system' and a demographic imbalance.

RhuBarbarella · 12/01/2016 20:40

Yes but they are not as much a part of the cultural landscape - being kept out of the public sphere. I agree with that point.

BarryMerry · 12/01/2016 20:09

I think that's a recognised phenomenon shalli, places that have a big influx of men due to industry, eg oil cities, forestry/mining settlements etc have problems with sexual violence and institutions like brothels & strip clubs springing up.

And likewise, after WW1, it was a time for the advancement of women's rights, partly due to the tragedy of losing much of a generation of young men in battle & skewing the gender demographics.

But how does that explain the sexual assault epidemic in Egypt... presumably there's not a significant gender imbalance there, these young men will either have wives or live at home with their mothers & sisters?