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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is there a conflict between PC speech codes and the need to name sources of misogynistic violence?

263 replies

OTheHugeManatee · 12/01/2016 10:21

I've been following debates around the 'trans' issue on FWR with interest for some time. More recently I've also been appalled by the mass sexual attacks in Cologne and the related issue of the stilted, minimising way those attacks have been discussed - particularly in the left-leaning press.

It's got me wondering about possible conflicts between PC speech codes and feminist analysis. I think this is a feature of both these issues. To be clear, by 'PC speech codes' I mean the cultural taboos that make it socially unacceptable to make generalisations about certain groups of people.

In trans debates, trans people are cast as a minority within a minority, and women are re-framed as the ones with privilege who must cede space to ease their suffering. Much of the feminist discussion around this is, as I understand it, devoted to challenging this narrative.

In the Cologne attacks, there was a visible reluctance by left of centre media to be explicit about the cultural/ethnic dimension to the attacks. The implicit view, from some quarters, seems to be that the right of white Western women to move about at night free from sexual assault weighs equally - or even lower - than the right of refugees to be protected from ugly stereotypes and/or racist reprisals, and that therefore the ethnic/cultural dimension of the attacks should be played down lest it exacerbate the suffering of refugees.

Elsewhere though in FWR I've seen robust defenses of the validity and need for generalisations, when it comes to class analysis of gendered violence. As I understand it, it is reasonable and valid to generalise about men as a class, even if NAMALT, because otherwise it is impossible to name the problem.

So what I'm wondering is this: if generalisations about men as a class are defensible in the interests of naming feminist problems, does the same apply to subsets of men? For example if misogynistic violence is a major problem among men of a particular culture in the UK (even relative to the general depressingly high levels of misogynistic violence in the general population, and even if NAM[culture]ALT), are we comfortable spelling that out?

If there are classes of people among whom misogynistic violence is more prevalent than the already high norm in the UK, I want to be able to name the problem. But I think there is often substantial resistance to this. There may well be valid and internally coherent reasons for this, but I think that from a feminist viewpoint we need to think about what's going on here.

I think this is very difficult ground for feminism. I'm loth to give examples, for fear of derailing what's intended as a general musing, but here's a fairly incendiary one. There are persistent and worrying rumours coming out of Sweden that sexual violence against women has skyrocketed in that country in recent years. This is clearly a feminist issue, and one that should surely be tackled vociferously by feminist campaigners. You'd think. However there are also persistent rumours that the overwhelming majority of this violence is perpetrated by recent immigrants of Arab/North African origin. But there is an almost total blackout in the 'respectable' mainstream Swedish press around this; the only news outlets willing to touch it are right-wing outfits such as Breitbart, and frankly bonkers conspiracy mongers like the Gatestone Institute.

The rumours relate to Sweden, but imagine you're a feminist in Sweden hearing these rumours. Do you write it off as lies and hate-mongering? Perhaps it is nothing but lies and hate-mongering. I don't know and can't verify it either way. I hope it is. But perhaps (like Rotherham) it isn't. So should you take a stand for women and say 'I'm going to risk contributing to a right-wing, racist discourse because if there is any possibility that it's true it should be investigated and stamped down on hard, because I want to stick up for the women being assaulted'? Or should we be saying 'Overall I think Swedish women have a pretty easy time of it, considered globally, and I don't want anyone conducting racist pogroms in my name, so I'm going to keep schtum'?

More generally, I am wondering if we need to think explicitly about what, as feminists, we do when there is a conflict between the aims and needs of feminism and those of other 'rights' groups. (It might just be me who needs to think about this; for all I know you've all already worked it out). But I think there are some conflicts, and the Cologne attacks and trans rights thing points to that. And I think there's a general, vague presumption among many people who consider themselves generally right-on that this is not the case, and that all the various needs of the various rights campaigns are either aligned by definition, or can somehow be balanced out. And yet, it seems self-evident to me that the needs of different rights campaigns often conflict; witness trans and women's rights. And when this 'balancing' takes place, again and again it is my observation that it's the rights of women that have to give ground.

My personal stance is that women's rights come first and if there is a conflict between women's rights and another rights campaign I'm for women. But what do others think? I think it's a live issue for feminism, a difficult one (at least difficult for feminists who think of themselves as generally left-wing, anti-racist, right-on etc) and one that I've not seen much discussion on.

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TheXxed · 13/01/2016 11:25

The UK feels zero imperial guilt they never payed reparations, they still hold onto stolen art work and artefacts, slave trade names are still on street names and museums and they still have statues to colonialist.

Racism is rife, you are more likely to past over for a job, arrested, receive poor health care, die in child birth, live in poverty all this despite black and minority ethinic children doing better in school.

OTheHugeManatee · 13/01/2016 10:26

Sorry, Melinda we x-posted there. Interesting thoughts though quite a different take from my own. Will have a think and respond later Smile

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OTheHugeManatee · 13/01/2016 10:24

It may be a different situation in the UK, but part of what may be fuelling it in continental Europe is a feeling that racism is the absolute worst thing ever, far worse than misogyny, and that therefore if women have to tolerate a bit of misogyny in order to avoid fanning the flames of racism then so be it. If I were to speculate, I would situate this in the context of the atrocities of Nazi Germany, and various post-imperial hangovers prevalent throughout Western Europe. Add to that the ever more fragmented, specialised and quick-to-offend style of identity politics we've imported from America, and the postmodern belief that speech is the same as action (ie words can constitute actual violence) and you have a situation where

  • generalisations about specific cultures or ethnicities are taboo because post-imperial guilt
  • there is a vague sense that the West has to atone for something
  • women's rights are seen as a problem 'out there' ie beyond the West, but as basically a done deal 'over here'
  • speech which is negative about minorities seen as 'vulnerable' is conflated with violence and hence repressed

Add all that together, top it off with the fact that most (I don't say all, but most) feminists are human and don't want to feel the full force of a twitch-hunting mob castigating them as racist hate-mongers and I don't think there is anything strange about a reluctance in some quarters to say 'We should stop importing North African men because if you have too many of them in one place they're a threat to women's safety'. This is in no way a failing of individual feminists. It's a bind that has been set up by the nexus of ideas, discursive patterns and favourite topics that coalesces broadly under the banner of 'pro-equalities'.

To put it another way, it's unusual for someone to describe themselves as a feminist without also being anti-racism, generally left-leaning and concerned with equalities generally. That makes it very difficult to say something that's taboo under the 'anti-racist' rubric, for fear of losing a part of one's political identity.

For that reason, I'm arguing that clear thinking is needed. For instance: I think that in order to try and be 'universal' feminism has found itself dissolving into a campaign for equalities generally. I think what's happened then is that this new 'equalities' thing can't cope with conflicts between diversity and women's rights. So should we abandon women's rights as an individual cause? Or should we abandon the idea of feminism as something universal?

Personally I'm happy to defend feminism as I know it (voting rights, equal rights in the workplace, freedom from violence in public and private life) as something specific to this geography, history and culture, rather than try and propagate it worldwide as something 'universal'. I also think that has the advantage of opening space for the evolution in other places of feminisms appropriate to other cultures, and hence of a flexible movement that can collaborate cross-culturally without any one version feeling the need to claim absolute truth and subsume another.

Taking that as a stance frees me to say 'well no, actually I don't have to make space for all these other equalities in my campaign for women's rights. No, I don't have to budge up and make space for men who think they're women. No, I don't have to stay silent about mass sexual assault by North African men, because I don't care if you think I'm a racist - I'm not, but my focus is women's rights and they're being eroded here. And no, I don't care that you want to do feminism differently in India and no, I'm not trying to colonise you with my white Western ways. You have a different history and set of priorities, do what you like, if I can support you I will but this is our history and culture and priorities and I claim the right to stand for those.'

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MelindaMay · 13/01/2016 10:02

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Egosumquisum · 13/01/2016 09:50

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OTheHugeManatee · 13/01/2016 09:49

I think if you just ask 'why aren't people talking about it' people can easily hear that as quite accusatory. It's easy to prompt a defensive rather than a thoughtful response.

'Why do people find this difficult to discuss?' was indeed the question that prompted my thread title. The title itself is my working hypothesis for why it's difficult to discuss. I've appreciated the many thoughtful responses so far, which have prompted me to go away and think, and in some cases refine my ideas.

I'm coming steadily to the idea that 'intersectionality' needs a far more robust critique than it typically receives (though it does, rightly, come in for some stick here). I think as a worldview it's responsible for a number of destructive things not directly relevant to feminism, but one of its core negative impacts has been on feminism. I'll post more about this perhaps when I'm not at work and have more time to think Grin

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MelindaMay · 13/01/2016 09:38

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Egosumquisum · 13/01/2016 09:20

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MelindaMay · 13/01/2016 09:06

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JaWellNoFine · 13/01/2016 09:04

'As an aside, I've wondered in the past whether this reflects an unconscious belief by 'intersectional' feminists that, in fact, equality for women has been achieved and therefore the main effort to achieve equality for all should prioritise other groups. Personally I disagree with this. Women's rights remain fragile, as we are increasingly seeing, and we will need constant vigilance and some determined clear thinking to stop them being swept away in a flurry of competing rights claims'.

I think the above is true, it was for me until recently. The trans issue and now Cologne have caused me to have a massive rethink about this.

Funnily enough it also introduced me to Miranda Yardleys blog. In there she has a response to an inquiry in which she states that the answer to all of this is basically eradicating misogyny. My DH was like ... It will never happen. It would take generations. However it is so true.

I believe that as woman make up 50% of the population their rights are the most important of all. That is what we should be campaigning for because that is the core issue with so much in society and it WILL result in a better world for every man woman and child.
This should be our focus. 100%

slugseatlettuce · 13/01/2016 08:44

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2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 08:39

What is "FWR"?

slugseatlettuce · 13/01/2016 08:30

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OTheHugeManatee · 13/01/2016 08:28

Well FWR is discussing it now. I'll take that, personally.

I started this thread because I had noticed a general sense among fans of liberal/equalities type ideas that this was a difficult issue to address. I wanted to explore why it feels like a bit of a bind. Like there was an unspoken feeling in places that our society has to choose between supporting women and supporting ethnic minority refugees. Pointing out that it is a bind, and hence that some feminists have been cautious about addressing it, doesn't really advance the discussion.

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TheXxed · 13/01/2016 08:28

Ego do you really think peoples cultural backgrounds have not been discussed widely enough in society. Genuine question.

My background has been of topic of discussion from politicians, policy makers, think tanks, journalist et al my entire life. People use coded language to discuss my cultural background words like 'attainment gap' or 'prison to school pipeline'. Cultural backgrounds have been the constant topic of my entire life. I would like to move to where you where apparently people aren't discussing it.

PalmerViolet · 13/01/2016 08:26

ego... then you're blind. Or willfully stupid.

Stop merailing yet another thread. You have your 'FWR are shit' thread going, I assume merrily, why not stick to slagging women off on there?

Egosumquisum · 13/01/2016 08:26

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slugseatlettuce · 13/01/2016 08:26

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moonstruckl8 · 13/01/2016 08:25

Its sad it's taken white feminism this long to see the dangers of individualism and liberalism to their movement and a shame that small c conservstive feminists only get roused about that when it comes to immigration. That the only way to build greater consensus and cooperation between left and right wing feminists is through parochial altruism against 'the other'. that they feel they have so little power in other issues to do with trends in society towards greater individualism to have a say. I get it, really I do- women all women do the best they can under the patriarchal circumstances they find themselves in.

Most of You say let us break down the statistics on violence against women into further sub groupings than male against female and you wish to make it on religion/ culture (as you feel inhibited to say race). that it is because of intersectional feminism that you are not allowed to study sub groupings of violence against women.

I mentioned intersectionality in my first post with an example that does not involve any issues to do with religion or culture or race. It was mainly about class and violence against women. The highest rates of domestic violence in the UK is in the city with the highest rate of unemployment - Liverpool. someone who doesn't come from and love this city may just say avoid scousers, avoid poor men, they are the most terrible towards women as s black and white solution. dodo point up thread about high numbers of unemployed 'untethered' young men disturbing the community spelled it out far better than the link I made.. Some of you may hate to bring any nuance in this subject preferring to look at 'feminism' so I wanted to ask how you would treat this subject if it was simply breaking down the statistics on male on female violence by class - that those statistics are far more glaring and telling but then what you do with that information depends on what part of the political spectrum you sit.

Just today in the news increased rise in violent crime since 2009 in the UK is being driven by increased violence against women,

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jan/13/hidden-rise-violent-crime-growth-violence-against-women
The link between austerity measures, cuts to social services and domestic violence charities and violence against women is clear, but much harder to deal with on a societal level than just saying 'immigrant men'.

PalmerViolet · 13/01/2016 08:24

Mass immigration has not been handled well. Not because of the race/religion of the men arriving, but because large groups of traumatised men with nothing to fill their days revert to gender extremes. We really do need more people working in Europe to sustain welfare systems, we certainly need them here, as evidenced by women getting shafted for pensions. We need them productive and safe though. Maybe what should happen is that newly arrived immigrants should be expected to undergo a few months of training, including language lessons, how to handle the new currency, exploring everyday life in their host country etc, and in this way they would have a purpose to their days? In this way, potential trouble could be spotted and averted? I'd also suggest that this might be a good idea for everyone who finds themselves without structure to their day, including the long term unemployed

I'd also agree with Melinda and slugs. Until we as a society are capable of treating women as equally human, then why on earth would we expect someone who's culture is even more restrictive to women to behave much better?

If they believe that 'white women are sluts' then they believe that because the only white women they will have had regular contact with are those used in advertising etc. Those women are commodified and hypersexualised. If men who have lived in Western society with those images surrounding them since birth can't stop sexually assaulting women, why would we expect men who general experience of women is so totally different? Yet again, women are reaping what men sow and yet again the loudest outrage is based in racism and ideas of women as property. God forbid that, as women, we're allowed to discuss what is actually happening here. As long as 'those' men are the only ones who have to modify their behaviour and 'these' women do too, then it means that men as a group don't... and that's how society likes things.

Egosumquisum · 13/01/2016 08:22

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Egosumquisum · 13/01/2016 08:18

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2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 08:17

I support women first. Culture is not an excuse and not all cultures are the same.

Mass gang rape in the public square is far more horrifying to me than being called "darling" or being whistled at. Anyone arguing some sort of moral equivalence needs to get a grip.

PalmerViolet · 13/01/2016 08:16

Ego.. you've started a thread where you've been merrily attacking the women of FWR for not posting, so I'm not sure what you're getting out of doing it on this one? A sense of moral superiority perhaps? The desire to tell women what to think and how to feminist again?

Also not sure what possible relevance the trans issue has here? Unless you're suggesting that either the attackers or victims were trans?

If you honestly don't see how VAWG is rarely discussed here, then maybe you should try reading threads. It constitutes a greater number of posts than trans issues. How would you like women to discuss it? Can you give us a proforma of acceptable thread titles maybe? Ways you'd like us to formulate our discussions? Permitted phrases?

Every time we discuss VAWG though, the discussions are shut down by either a) trolls b) not my Nigelling c) NAMALTing. Unless we can add race or religion into the mix, then we can dissect and class analyse until the cows come home. Odd that, don't you think?

slugseatlettuce · 13/01/2016 08:15

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