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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is there a conflict between PC speech codes and the need to name sources of misogynistic violence?

263 replies

OTheHugeManatee · 12/01/2016 10:21

I've been following debates around the 'trans' issue on FWR with interest for some time. More recently I've also been appalled by the mass sexual attacks in Cologne and the related issue of the stilted, minimising way those attacks have been discussed - particularly in the left-leaning press.

It's got me wondering about possible conflicts between PC speech codes and feminist analysis. I think this is a feature of both these issues. To be clear, by 'PC speech codes' I mean the cultural taboos that make it socially unacceptable to make generalisations about certain groups of people.

In trans debates, trans people are cast as a minority within a minority, and women are re-framed as the ones with privilege who must cede space to ease their suffering. Much of the feminist discussion around this is, as I understand it, devoted to challenging this narrative.

In the Cologne attacks, there was a visible reluctance by left of centre media to be explicit about the cultural/ethnic dimension to the attacks. The implicit view, from some quarters, seems to be that the right of white Western women to move about at night free from sexual assault weighs equally - or even lower - than the right of refugees to be protected from ugly stereotypes and/or racist reprisals, and that therefore the ethnic/cultural dimension of the attacks should be played down lest it exacerbate the suffering of refugees.

Elsewhere though in FWR I've seen robust defenses of the validity and need for generalisations, when it comes to class analysis of gendered violence. As I understand it, it is reasonable and valid to generalise about men as a class, even if NAMALT, because otherwise it is impossible to name the problem.

So what I'm wondering is this: if generalisations about men as a class are defensible in the interests of naming feminist problems, does the same apply to subsets of men? For example if misogynistic violence is a major problem among men of a particular culture in the UK (even relative to the general depressingly high levels of misogynistic violence in the general population, and even if NAM[culture]ALT), are we comfortable spelling that out?

If there are classes of people among whom misogynistic violence is more prevalent than the already high norm in the UK, I want to be able to name the problem. But I think there is often substantial resistance to this. There may well be valid and internally coherent reasons for this, but I think that from a feminist viewpoint we need to think about what's going on here.

I think this is very difficult ground for feminism. I'm loth to give examples, for fear of derailing what's intended as a general musing, but here's a fairly incendiary one. There are persistent and worrying rumours coming out of Sweden that sexual violence against women has skyrocketed in that country in recent years. This is clearly a feminist issue, and one that should surely be tackled vociferously by feminist campaigners. You'd think. However there are also persistent rumours that the overwhelming majority of this violence is perpetrated by recent immigrants of Arab/North African origin. But there is an almost total blackout in the 'respectable' mainstream Swedish press around this; the only news outlets willing to touch it are right-wing outfits such as Breitbart, and frankly bonkers conspiracy mongers like the Gatestone Institute.

The rumours relate to Sweden, but imagine you're a feminist in Sweden hearing these rumours. Do you write it off as lies and hate-mongering? Perhaps it is nothing but lies and hate-mongering. I don't know and can't verify it either way. I hope it is. But perhaps (like Rotherham) it isn't. So should you take a stand for women and say 'I'm going to risk contributing to a right-wing, racist discourse because if there is any possibility that it's true it should be investigated and stamped down on hard, because I want to stick up for the women being assaulted'? Or should we be saying 'Overall I think Swedish women have a pretty easy time of it, considered globally, and I don't want anyone conducting racist pogroms in my name, so I'm going to keep schtum'?

More generally, I am wondering if we need to think explicitly about what, as feminists, we do when there is a conflict between the aims and needs of feminism and those of other 'rights' groups. (It might just be me who needs to think about this; for all I know you've all already worked it out). But I think there are some conflicts, and the Cologne attacks and trans rights thing points to that. And I think there's a general, vague presumption among many people who consider themselves generally right-on that this is not the case, and that all the various needs of the various rights campaigns are either aligned by definition, or can somehow be balanced out. And yet, it seems self-evident to me that the needs of different rights campaigns often conflict; witness trans and women's rights. And when this 'balancing' takes place, again and again it is my observation that it's the rights of women that have to give ground.

My personal stance is that women's rights come first and if there is a conflict between women's rights and another rights campaign I'm for women. But what do others think? I think it's a live issue for feminism, a difficult one (at least difficult for feminists who think of themselves as generally left-wing, anti-racist, right-on etc) and one that I've not seen much discussion on.

OP posts:
MorrisZapp · 13/01/2016 13:21

I too am sickened by the likes of Katie Hopkins and a host of sexist male commentators suddenly finding their inner feminist when they can have a go at immigrants. It's hypocrisy of the most blatant kind.

But that's not the point. We can discuss things for the right reasons, even if others are discussing them for the wrong ones.

MorrisZapp · 13/01/2016 13:17

And it isn't race that's the issue or defining subset factor, it's religion.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 13:16

I couldn't give a shiny shit if many/ most of the perpetrators are BME. They all look like blokes to me. BME sexism is the same order of things as white sexism. It sickens me that white men are only willing to enter the discussion so long as it doesn't look like they have to change anything about their behaviour.

I have spent time listening to young women describing their experiences of clubland and they do describe experiencing 'hand rape' as routinely as I used to experience bum pinching and they don't report it because in this country it is 'rowdy drunks going too far'.

MorrisZapp · 13/01/2016 13:14

I agree surfer. If they're rich, all the better. Rich white men have been abusing their privilege since time began, and it's fine to highlight it, talk about it, and discuss what it is about the rich white subset that makes them act this way. But other subsets, nope, that's just masculinity. Nothing more.

SurferJet · 13/01/2016 13:10

Op: I will never explain this as well as I'd like, but I've often felt that ( some ) feminists only agenda is to bring down white men. I'm assuming it's because 'the white man' holds all the power. I could be completely wrong but that is how it looks sometimes.

MorrisZapp · 13/01/2016 13:08

I live in a city and have never witnessed sexual assault on the street. If I saw it en mass I'd be fucking horrified.

That's just minimising and double speak in my opinion. Of course women are subject to assault on our streets every day. But no, the scenes in Cologne do not look like any city centre I've seen or heard of.

And please can we stick to discussing assault, not harassment. Harassment is often verbal, I've experienced it many times in UK and abroad. But it is not assault. These crimes are in the assault category, please don't downplay them.

BarryMerry · 13/01/2016 13:05

Post hoc, all offenders should be treated equally, no matter what their ethnic or cultural background, through the criminal justice system.

Ante hoc, no, we need to fully understand the cultural nuances that give rise to specific behaviour and offending patterns so we can tackle the problems with effective legislation and social policies. We can't do that if we don't have full information in the data sets... or selectively ignore salient information for political expediency reasons. White male professionals harrassing women in the vicinity of a strip club has different roots and dynamics from taharrush gamea & the events of Cologne bahnhof/Tahrir Sq/We Are Stockholm festival. Equally repulsive, with many overlapping features, but a different quality from each other.

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 13:05

I think it is keeping your eye on the problem to say, if there were a crowd of 'migrant' 'refugee' 'north african' women on the street, everyone would have been safe.

This point has been made routinely on some of the other threads.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 13:04

I think the numbers of women assaulted aren't new. Perhaps the style, the grouping. But not the open sexual assault, no, that's not new, not the blatant misogyny, no, that's not new, not the treating of women as objects through which you can achieve your masculinity, no that's not new. The scale is not new, no. That you would gather openly on the street to do it, perhaps that is new. That women were believed and that the assualts were recognised as assaults, that's new. But that 100's of women were subjected to sexual assault on a night out, nope, not new.

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 13:02

As a women I always feel secure around many men it is only when isolated I am more fearful.

I agree. Crowded public spaces had always been safe up until now. This is a sinister new turn. This how I have felt in London in crowds whether those crowds be White, Black, or Asian, and being, London it is usually a pretty even mix. I don't think this is a race thing. It is a culture thing.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 13:01

In Feminism in London 2014, a breakout session involved approx 8-10 young British women describing how they had to wear extra underwear in order to signal that they were not available for what you call 'hand rape' - the attempt to insert a finger in the vagina. These young women were amazed that the older women there including myself called it sexual assault because it is their normal/ club culture. I believe them.

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 12:59

Outself As I understand it, you have just complained that the 2016 mass sexual assaults are nothing new. I think you are wrong. But, if you have facts to back that up, I am willing to listen.

bluebolt · 13/01/2016 12:58

"Had raped" should say "hand raped"

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 12:58

I don't think refusing to qualify sexism in racial or cultural terms is tying yourself in knots or being sunk. I think it is keeping your eye on the problem to say, if there were a crowd of 'migrant' 'refugee' 'north african' women on the street, everyone would have been safe. Masculinity is the deciding factor here. Let's not get distracted by race.

bluebolt · 13/01/2016 12:57

It is minimising, it was not an average Saturday night. Many of these women were had raped openly in public. As a women I always feel secure around many men it is only when isolated I am more fearful. This is about men assaulting women and other men enabling them to do this. I think you should move if this is your Saturday night.

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 12:57

I do not think it is extreme to imagine 200 sexual assaults in a town centre anywhere.

What happened in Cologne is on public record now. What other examples outside of NYE 2016 have you got? Actual incidents, not just what you capable of imagining.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 12:55

"Rowdy drunks going too far" is minimising, in my eyes.

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 12:55

I'm coming steadily to the idea that 'intersectionality' needs a far more robust critique than it typically receives

yes, yes, yes

Just when you start pinning something down, you are forced to tie yourself in knots and be sunk by the weight of all the problems in the world.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 12:54

I am not minimising. I do not think it is extreme to imagine 200 sexual assaults in a town centre anywhere. I think it is minimising to deny that sexual assault happens on a massive scale everywhere. I think we don't report or recognise European sexism. I think the outrage over Cologne is what we should feel daily about women here.

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 12:46

2. The thing about the mass sexual assualts in Cologne - surely I can't have been the only person thinking, this is like every town centre I've ever been in on a Saturday night. Women of all ethnicities are treated in this way routinely by men all the bloody time, and it's only worthy of reporting when? The media aren't really reporting this because they are concerned about women, are they?

Really!
This was far beyond rowdy drunks going to far. This was a whole new phenomena in its scale and organisation. Which town centres are you thinking of? Town centres where it is typical for over 200 women to claim they have been sexual assualted in the course of just hours by a crowd of a 1000 men? I've been to Mardi Gras and some festivals where I've had my bottom pinched in the crowd. I didn't like it. What these women endured was far more terrifying and I imagine it will stay with them forever. How could you minimise it like that?

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 12:34

I think it was heavily weighted more to "a" than to "b" Melinda.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 12:31

Sorry, I haven't had time to RTFT and I do intend to. Very, very quickly though:

  1. My understanding is that when you do class analysis, it can only really withstand the NAMALT whataboutery etc when it is punching up. If you are using it to further marginalise an already marginalised group, it is adding to rather than addressing oppression. It's not that you are doing class analysis but stop when it comes to race. It's that the PROPER class analysis here is men in relation to women, female value in relation to men. I think it is really telling that white women do become suddenly valuable in relation to BME men. I think that tells us a lot, actually.
  1. The thing about the mass sexual assualts in Cologne - surely I can't have been the only person thinking, this is like every town centre I've ever been in on a Saturday night. Women of all ethnicities are treated in this way routinely by men all the bloody time, and it's only worthy of reporting when? The media aren't really reporting this because they are concerned about women, are they?
  1. To my eyes, the thing the perpetrators here and everywhere else have in common is that they are all men. I feel infuriated by white men/ the liberal elite only seeing these crimes when they feel like the numbers are good enough to extricate themselves once again from the discussion. Try and raise the issue of open sexual harrassment on British streets in any other context, and you are a man hating feminist/ a slut who brings it on herself by drinking, talking to men and wearing dresses.

4.I think talking about race in relation to this is another way of letting white men off. It's a red herring so we stop talking about men and we start talking about something else, race, religion, colour, creed. These 'north african' or whatthefuckever they were called men just look like men to me. Masculinity the world over looks fucked to me.

5.I am not throwing women under the bus by refusing to join in a discussion about how backward all the migrants are. I'm keeping the focus on the real problem, that is men of all kinds in relation to women. I'd be happy to discuss this issue in racial terms when bme sexism stops looking exactly like the logical and rational extreme of white sexism.

  1. Worrying about being called racist in discussions which touch on race is like the calling card of white privilege. There is no nice way of saying this, and I am aware of saying it to nice, well meaning people, but seriously, if you are worried about being called racist, what you are performing is your racial privilege. People who talk against racial prejudice in discussions like this are immediately shut down with 'you are calling me racist'. Privileging your own feeling that it is not nice to be called racist over the actual problem of creating racist discourses and challenging racist structures is definitionally a racial privilege.

7.Not all the perpetrators of this kind of crime are BME, but they are all men. I couldn't give a shit if BME are disproportionally represented in this. Because the salient fact, the thing that makes them act like bloody colonial powers in relation to women, is that they are men. White men get to realise their masculinity by hiring prozzies, having huge cars, the biggest paycheques and expensive divorces, doing their corporate entertainment at strip clubs and running the world. Get rid of Islam, is patriarchy gone? No. Educate everyone in the ways of the white liberal elite, is patriarchy gone? No. Are women safe if everyone is an atheist leftie? Hell no. Patriarchy and masculinity are the problem here. Everything else is an accent, a particular style, a particular way of doing your sexism. It all looks the bloody same to my eyes.

I will not start punching down to already marginalised people. Not because I'm afraid of being called racist but because I think it means we take our eyes off the problem which is the global patriarchy. Patriarchy looks different in different cultures, and expresses itself in a number of ways but always adds up to the subjugation of women.

bluebolt · 13/01/2016 12:18

I find that the silence and the deflecting by many feminist will lead us to societies where we need men to protect their women. The objects of society that many feminists have challenged for centuries. Not only are we handing back our control to the far right, we are handing it back to men to protect us.

grimbletart · 13/01/2016 12:07

Applauds OTheHugeManatee.

I also don't care if I am accused of being racist because I know I'm not. I don't care if I am accused of being right wing (apparently the most heinous sin of all) because I know I'm not.

What is the difference in those of us who don't care about being accused of attitudes we don't hold and those that do?

I'm not sure, but it may be that those of us who don't care don't hold the view that being left wing means you are somehow morally superior with higher values than those who are not left wing. Most people like to feel they are decent and compassionate and are reluctant to say anything that produces sneers about racism (for example). So they are caught in the moral blackmail of strident left wingers and pious establishment 'liberals'.

The belief that therefore small c conservatives and centrists and even moderate Conservatives are somehow less moral or ethical seeps into you as if by osmosis.

I've noticed it a lot, I've thought about it a lot, I've questioned myself a lot. But at the end of it I know I am not racist, anti-immigrant or anything like that when I voice worries about what is going on with immigration policy, with cultural differences, with severe concerns about multiculturalism (as opposed to integration into a host country's values) etc.

The left's policy and that of the current political establishments of trying to pretend there has not been a sea change in Europe, of trying to ignore concerns generally by accusations of racism, of being scared of fuelling right-wingery or being seen as anti-immigrant if they express worries over the difficulties of integrating an influx of (mainly) men from vastly different cultures is pathetic. Sooner or later they will have to face the issues instead of sticking their fingers in their ears and going la la la.

Women are sick of being shoved under the bus, and you only have to read Doris Lessing, for example, or see the past attitudes of some trade unions to understand that being left wing does not mean being women-friendly.

DadWasHere · 13/01/2016 11:50

I think in this case, rather than looking at these men as a subset of ME culture, or a subset of Islam, we should look at them as a subset of men.

Tortuous logic MelindaMay, if you can define a subset you can target it specifiably. Whether you target it legitimately or not is what makes it an 'ism', not that you define it in the first place or target it after its defined.

If you take men from a culture that has a low opinion of women and transport them to a culture that has a markedly higher opinion of women you make trouble for women, unless you are very selective in who you admit or are able to alter their personal morality or make them aware of, and respect, law. Is that incorrect? The same logic should work in reverse, you take men from a culture that respects women more than your own, overall it should be a net benefit for women.

Everyone knows that the treatment of women varies tremendously around the world. Women got to vote in the UK in 1928 but women got to vote in Saudi Arabia only last year... in local elections... in a nation not ruled by a democracy. Perhaps they will even be allowed to drive cars one day. What a novel idea.

There would certainly be men in UK that see women as little more than dirt, but I believe there are proportionally fewer of them than in some other cultures, yet proportionately more than in others. Saying it matters little because it should be mostly about the Y chromosome is just ludicrous to me. People are, profoundly, products of their cultures and experiences, not simply just their sex.