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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is there a conflict between PC speech codes and the need to name sources of misogynistic violence?

263 replies

OTheHugeManatee · 12/01/2016 10:21

I've been following debates around the 'trans' issue on FWR with interest for some time. More recently I've also been appalled by the mass sexual attacks in Cologne and the related issue of the stilted, minimising way those attacks have been discussed - particularly in the left-leaning press.

It's got me wondering about possible conflicts between PC speech codes and feminist analysis. I think this is a feature of both these issues. To be clear, by 'PC speech codes' I mean the cultural taboos that make it socially unacceptable to make generalisations about certain groups of people.

In trans debates, trans people are cast as a minority within a minority, and women are re-framed as the ones with privilege who must cede space to ease their suffering. Much of the feminist discussion around this is, as I understand it, devoted to challenging this narrative.

In the Cologne attacks, there was a visible reluctance by left of centre media to be explicit about the cultural/ethnic dimension to the attacks. The implicit view, from some quarters, seems to be that the right of white Western women to move about at night free from sexual assault weighs equally - or even lower - than the right of refugees to be protected from ugly stereotypes and/or racist reprisals, and that therefore the ethnic/cultural dimension of the attacks should be played down lest it exacerbate the suffering of refugees.

Elsewhere though in FWR I've seen robust defenses of the validity and need for generalisations, when it comes to class analysis of gendered violence. As I understand it, it is reasonable and valid to generalise about men as a class, even if NAMALT, because otherwise it is impossible to name the problem.

So what I'm wondering is this: if generalisations about men as a class are defensible in the interests of naming feminist problems, does the same apply to subsets of men? For example if misogynistic violence is a major problem among men of a particular culture in the UK (even relative to the general depressingly high levels of misogynistic violence in the general population, and even if NAM[culture]ALT), are we comfortable spelling that out?

If there are classes of people among whom misogynistic violence is more prevalent than the already high norm in the UK, I want to be able to name the problem. But I think there is often substantial resistance to this. There may well be valid and internally coherent reasons for this, but I think that from a feminist viewpoint we need to think about what's going on here.

I think this is very difficult ground for feminism. I'm loth to give examples, for fear of derailing what's intended as a general musing, but here's a fairly incendiary one. There are persistent and worrying rumours coming out of Sweden that sexual violence against women has skyrocketed in that country in recent years. This is clearly a feminist issue, and one that should surely be tackled vociferously by feminist campaigners. You'd think. However there are also persistent rumours that the overwhelming majority of this violence is perpetrated by recent immigrants of Arab/North African origin. But there is an almost total blackout in the 'respectable' mainstream Swedish press around this; the only news outlets willing to touch it are right-wing outfits such as Breitbart, and frankly bonkers conspiracy mongers like the Gatestone Institute.

The rumours relate to Sweden, but imagine you're a feminist in Sweden hearing these rumours. Do you write it off as lies and hate-mongering? Perhaps it is nothing but lies and hate-mongering. I don't know and can't verify it either way. I hope it is. But perhaps (like Rotherham) it isn't. So should you take a stand for women and say 'I'm going to risk contributing to a right-wing, racist discourse because if there is any possibility that it's true it should be investigated and stamped down on hard, because I want to stick up for the women being assaulted'? Or should we be saying 'Overall I think Swedish women have a pretty easy time of it, considered globally, and I don't want anyone conducting racist pogroms in my name, so I'm going to keep schtum'?

More generally, I am wondering if we need to think explicitly about what, as feminists, we do when there is a conflict between the aims and needs of feminism and those of other 'rights' groups. (It might just be me who needs to think about this; for all I know you've all already worked it out). But I think there are some conflicts, and the Cologne attacks and trans rights thing points to that. And I think there's a general, vague presumption among many people who consider themselves generally right-on that this is not the case, and that all the various needs of the various rights campaigns are either aligned by definition, or can somehow be balanced out. And yet, it seems self-evident to me that the needs of different rights campaigns often conflict; witness trans and women's rights. And when this 'balancing' takes place, again and again it is my observation that it's the rights of women that have to give ground.

My personal stance is that women's rights come first and if there is a conflict between women's rights and another rights campaign I'm for women. But what do others think? I think it's a live issue for feminism, a difficult one (at least difficult for feminists who think of themselves as generally left-wing, anti-racist, right-on etc) and one that I've not seen much discussion on.

OP posts:
MelindaMay · 13/01/2016 15:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

almondpudding · 13/01/2016 15:18

The sexual assaults you have mentioned are not like the sexual assaults in Cologne, and you're the one victim blaming,

Wear two pairs of knickers.

FFS.

MelindaMay · 13/01/2016 15:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 15:10

I brought up the example to make it clear that the sexual assaults that happened in Cologne are like sexual assaults that happen here and are accepted and normalised by the same people who think that the behaviour of those men in Cologne is unacceptable. I actually think it is entirely comparable because a digital rape is fucking abhorent in whatever situation it's happening? I mean, haven't we taken to task Richard Dawkins on precisely this kind of 'rape in this situations is worse than rape in those situations' type qualification? It's all unacceptable to me.

But when I raise the one example I am dismissed, it's diminished, it's ridiculous to think that choosing to go to a club should entail the same freedoms as going about our daily business. Moreover, there is a police response in Cologne, it has roundly been condemned, there are all sorts of discussions about how we're going to reeducate these immigrants. The men in the clubs, though, our men, don 't have to change their behaviour at all. And if any of them reading this did pause for a second and think he should, he is given multiple get out of jail free cards by posters saying stuff like, well, don't go to the club or they are lying. I couldn't make this up if I was the fucking number one script writer for patriarchy international

almondpudding · 13/01/2016 15:00

Then why did you mention wearing two pairs of knickers at all? It has absolutely no relevance to the discussion and you could have pointed out that women get assaulted in clubs without bringing up victim blaming solutions.

I travel home at night, most nights, through a city square and by train. My daughter frequently travels home from school activities at night by public transport.

If it is 'normal' for gangs of men to surround and sexually assault women in city squares and train stations, this will pretty much destroy mine and my daughter's right to education and employment.

It is not comparable to clubbing.

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 14:58

Try to separate urban myth from facts. I don't believe this is normal or happening regularly.

GreenTomatoJam · 13/01/2016 14:56

Of course it's bloody not the equivalent - don't be ridiculous - I'm just saying that people normalise all sorts of appalling stuff, that being groped is also unacceptable, yet almost no-one ever reports it, so it's no great surprise to me, as outself says, that it going as far as penetration is normalised.

Hell, I've read articles with high-school girls in the US who just assume that at parties they'll be giving blow jobs to multiple men with no control over who those men are. People normalise all sorts of shit situations.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 14:51

I did not share the cultural practice of knicker wearing as a solution but as a way of pointing to the way that similar incidents in our culture are dismissed and minimised. Those examples were then dismissed and minimised. I'm sorry but there is not a spectrum of 'hand rape' which goes from mildly irritating/ 'rowdy drunks going too far' to 'completely unacceptable because they were at the station'. These crimes are of the same order of magnitude to the women that they happen to. They happen in massive numbers. It's not that I am dismissing what happened in Cologne, not at all: I'm just asking why it is that the same thing happening to young women in clubs in our culture is not at all comparable? Because it looks like the same old shit to me.

kesstrel · 13/01/2016 14:50

if you have suggested that it is either a lie or their behaviour is what caused it.

Nobody has suggested any such thing. Please don't continue with your twisting and distortions of other people's views.

kesstrel · 13/01/2016 14:49

OK, so being groped on the train is equivalent to being surrounded by 30 plus men and being multiply penetrated 6 or 7 of them, having your underwear torn off, and watching it happen to your 14 year old daughter as well?

Look, I'm not saying groping on the train or in a club isn't awful and disgusting. But are we really saying that we should be campaigning against that whilst saying whilst saying nothing about takarrrash gaemin being imported to Europe?

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 14:42

Agree almondpudding.

almondpudding · 13/01/2016 14:41

If the situation in Cologne and other cities recently is not unique, are there examples of where the same things have happened elsewhere and how authorities have dealt with them effectively or otherwise?

Because I don't see how sharing advice or cultural practices around wearing extra pairs of knickers is useful in relation to these situations.

I also think it is important and not victim blaming to distinguish between sexual assaults where the victim has a means of escape (a club) and spaces where victims means of escape is blocked (gangs of men blocking women and girls to conduct sexual assaults in public transport hubs and public spaces women and girls need to walk through).

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 14:39

Thank you Kesstrel. Smile

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 14:39

It's not fallacious to ask why you think women in this country either lie about being sexually assaulted in this way or asked for it if you have suggested that it is either a lie or their behaviour is what caused it.

Honestly shit like 'Conflating that with choosing to attend a club' is making my argument for me. Please, do continue

GreenTomatoJam · 13/01/2016 14:37

Dunno kesstrel, I'm no catch looks-wise, but I've been groped (although on top of clothes than goodness) more than once on the tube, surrounded by people, unable to move or escape, or even see who it was that was doing it.

I thought that was a fairly common experience for those of us who commute through London at rush hour? I certainly didn't really consider it so unusual as to be worth getting home late to report it at the time.

Siolence · 13/01/2016 14:35

I'm reeling that digital rape is now common in clubs. Was bad enough being rubbed up against, having your arse felt 15 years ago.

No one suggested you didn't go to clubs, it went with the territory. I'm horrified that the mauling of women's bodies in crowded places has escalated to penetration.

kesstrel · 13/01/2016 14:33

So it's their fault for going, is it? Or is it that they were lying? Exactly why do you think 'hand rape' committed by north african men in a public square is an issue, but when committed by UK men it's probably not true and they were asking for it anyway?

It's interesting how often people who wish to distort the views of others employ the complex question fallacy. It lets them avoid the appearance of blatantly misrepresenting/lying about what other people have said, while making it more difficult for people to respond.

kesstrel · 13/01/2016 14:30

Exactly, 2016. Nor does groping at clubs involve 30 men surrounding a single woman in order to prevent her from accessing help/getting away.

These events took place not just in a public square, but in the exit to a railway station. There were women with their young daughters, who had no choice but to run the gauntlet of that exit. Conflating that with choosing to attend a club is ridiculous.

Presumably it was wrong to draw attention to the way Catholic culture enabled peodophile priests; instead the discussion/campaign should have been about how sexual abuse of children takes place everywhere. After all Catholics have been seriously discriminated against in the past, and still are in some places.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 14:24

I believe those young women who told me and many others about that (it was a public disucssion with many contributors and many witnesses). It was their normal to be sexually assualted. You have suggested that they are either lying 'why would anyone go there' or asking for it 'I can decide not to patronise a dance club, where I won't be respected'. So it's their fault for going, is it? Or is it that they were lying? Exactly why do you think 'hand rape' committed by north african men in a public square is an issue, but when committed by UK men it's probably not true and they were asking for it anyway?

This is exactly what I mean by the way that sexual assualt is dismissed and minimised inside our own culture. You're doing it right there. It's why I'm not surprised that it happened, it's why it looks exactly like the same old patriarchy doing the same old shit. I don't the Cologne situation is 'new' in either scale or quality. It says a lot about our culture and our press that Cologne we recognise but we are pleased to dismiss our own misogynists as 'rowdy drunks going too far'.

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 14:12

Outself, if the club scene is like that, I wonder how the club can stay in business. Why does anyone go? I wouldn't.

The public square is a different matter. I can decide not to patronise a dance club, where I won't be respected. I have to walk down the street to live my life.

HelpfulChap · 13/01/2016 14:07

It is indeed an excellent discussion. And I apologise for derailing.

Grimarse · 13/01/2016 14:01

HelpfulChap, I too am a white western male. I have so far kept out of what is an excellent, thoughtful discussion. Whatever insult you think has been sent your way, let it go. You are seen by some feminists (NAFALT) as the root of the problem by dint of your chromosomes, not by your individual actions. That is just how it is.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 13:37

If your biggest concern in discussions like this is being insulted then you are doing great, aren't you? The rest of us have to contend with the reality of being under threat of sexual assault and racist abuse. Please let's not have to go through the many reasons why it might be appropriate to not privilege your feelings here.

HelpfulChap · 13/01/2016 13:31

OutsSelf

I think I, as a white man, am being insulted there somehow.

I'm not really bright enough to work out what, by default, am being called.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 13:29

I think every time we discuss it in terms of religion race etc we are overlooking the fact that men of all religions and races do this on a massive scale to women all the time. We contribute to the minimising of the overall problem, that men the world over feel entitled to the bodies and labour and reproductive capacity of women the world over. White men exploit women just as much but in different ways and with more power, more clout and less culpability. I would be pleased to discuss the racial aspect of this when, as I said upthread, it stops looking like a logical and rational realisation of the same old patriarchy doing the same old shit.