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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is there a conflict between PC speech codes and the need to name sources of misogynistic violence?

263 replies

OTheHugeManatee · 12/01/2016 10:21

I've been following debates around the 'trans' issue on FWR with interest for some time. More recently I've also been appalled by the mass sexual attacks in Cologne and the related issue of the stilted, minimising way those attacks have been discussed - particularly in the left-leaning press.

It's got me wondering about possible conflicts between PC speech codes and feminist analysis. I think this is a feature of both these issues. To be clear, by 'PC speech codes' I mean the cultural taboos that make it socially unacceptable to make generalisations about certain groups of people.

In trans debates, trans people are cast as a minority within a minority, and women are re-framed as the ones with privilege who must cede space to ease their suffering. Much of the feminist discussion around this is, as I understand it, devoted to challenging this narrative.

In the Cologne attacks, there was a visible reluctance by left of centre media to be explicit about the cultural/ethnic dimension to the attacks. The implicit view, from some quarters, seems to be that the right of white Western women to move about at night free from sexual assault weighs equally - or even lower - than the right of refugees to be protected from ugly stereotypes and/or racist reprisals, and that therefore the ethnic/cultural dimension of the attacks should be played down lest it exacerbate the suffering of refugees.

Elsewhere though in FWR I've seen robust defenses of the validity and need for generalisations, when it comes to class analysis of gendered violence. As I understand it, it is reasonable and valid to generalise about men as a class, even if NAMALT, because otherwise it is impossible to name the problem.

So what I'm wondering is this: if generalisations about men as a class are defensible in the interests of naming feminist problems, does the same apply to subsets of men? For example if misogynistic violence is a major problem among men of a particular culture in the UK (even relative to the general depressingly high levels of misogynistic violence in the general population, and even if NAM[culture]ALT), are we comfortable spelling that out?

If there are classes of people among whom misogynistic violence is more prevalent than the already high norm in the UK, I want to be able to name the problem. But I think there is often substantial resistance to this. There may well be valid and internally coherent reasons for this, but I think that from a feminist viewpoint we need to think about what's going on here.

I think this is very difficult ground for feminism. I'm loth to give examples, for fear of derailing what's intended as a general musing, but here's a fairly incendiary one. There are persistent and worrying rumours coming out of Sweden that sexual violence against women has skyrocketed in that country in recent years. This is clearly a feminist issue, and one that should surely be tackled vociferously by feminist campaigners. You'd think. However there are also persistent rumours that the overwhelming majority of this violence is perpetrated by recent immigrants of Arab/North African origin. But there is an almost total blackout in the 'respectable' mainstream Swedish press around this; the only news outlets willing to touch it are right-wing outfits such as Breitbart, and frankly bonkers conspiracy mongers like the Gatestone Institute.

The rumours relate to Sweden, but imagine you're a feminist in Sweden hearing these rumours. Do you write it off as lies and hate-mongering? Perhaps it is nothing but lies and hate-mongering. I don't know and can't verify it either way. I hope it is. But perhaps (like Rotherham) it isn't. So should you take a stand for women and say 'I'm going to risk contributing to a right-wing, racist discourse because if there is any possibility that it's true it should be investigated and stamped down on hard, because I want to stick up for the women being assaulted'? Or should we be saying 'Overall I think Swedish women have a pretty easy time of it, considered globally, and I don't want anyone conducting racist pogroms in my name, so I'm going to keep schtum'?

More generally, I am wondering if we need to think explicitly about what, as feminists, we do when there is a conflict between the aims and needs of feminism and those of other 'rights' groups. (It might just be me who needs to think about this; for all I know you've all already worked it out). But I think there are some conflicts, and the Cologne attacks and trans rights thing points to that. And I think there's a general, vague presumption among many people who consider themselves generally right-on that this is not the case, and that all the various needs of the various rights campaigns are either aligned by definition, or can somehow be balanced out. And yet, it seems self-evident to me that the needs of different rights campaigns often conflict; witness trans and women's rights. And when this 'balancing' takes place, again and again it is my observation that it's the rights of women that have to give ground.

My personal stance is that women's rights come first and if there is a conflict between women's rights and another rights campaign I'm for women. But what do others think? I think it's a live issue for feminism, a difficult one (at least difficult for feminists who think of themselves as generally left-wing, anti-racist, right-on etc) and one that I've not seen much discussion on.

OP posts:
TheXxed · 13/01/2016 17:14

An adherence to intersectionality certainly seems insane at this point, but so many women seem willing to martyr themselves as well as the rest of us, unfortunately to that concept. It's very important to remember that intersectionality is a Marxist critical theory concept first and foremost. It is NOT a concept that particularly protects women.

Nothing about this post made any sense, what is your understanding of intersectional feminism? Who is martyring themselves? Who are women? Are you including black, gay and disabled women?

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 17:08

What I am getting at is I have never been afraid that a group or single attacker could assault me with the assistance of other members of the public? I always assume that people around me are neutral if not a bit cowardly and I risk assess accordingly. I don't think this post cologne and that is new for me.

Right on target coffee. Instead of most people being good, suddenly the whole crowd of seemingly unrelated strangers become monsters attacking you in mass. Horrific.

MelindaMay · 13/01/2016 17:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 17:03

I don't think my position is the intersectional one because I am not particularly advocating for any particularly marginalised group of women. My understanding of intersectional feminism is that I would not really be a very good intersectional feminist because I mainly want to talk about women as a class.

To clarify: I think what happened in Cologne was truly awful. I welcome the outcry. I just want us to be equally outraged by the situation across the board, outraged by UK sexism and the constant state of violence against women and children. I think the Cologne media event is highly suspect. I think the horror we feel about Cologne is the horror we should feel about young women growing up in pornified culture. I am horrified by it all. I think it's equally an infringement on my rights to be digitally penetrated in a club, or when crowd surfing, as it is going to and from the station.

I am not worried at alll about being called a racist. I just think the real common denominator of the perps of crimes like this is that they are male.

itllallbefine · 13/01/2016 17:01

outs

I'm sorry but you sound paranoid. The media do not have an "anti immigrant" agenda, unless you seriously believe that the guardian et al. are now on the same side as the DM. The refugee crisis and influx of people of middle eastern/north african appearance has been THE major news story for the last 6 months. In order for your world view to be accurate, then women in cologne either do not bother to report sexual assault and rape by groups of white german men, or they do and the police just ignore it on a MASSIVE scale.

I cannot take seriously your contention that sexual assault on this scale is common place and that the media coverage of this otherwise unremarkable event, is based on racism. I'm a relatively young women and have been to many nightclubs, i know nightclub owners. This characterisation of a woman's typical clubbing experience as being one in which sexual assault is practically inevitable is politically driven misrepresentation.

whodrankmycoffee · 13/01/2016 16:53

On intersectionality I always worked on the basis it was supposed to include more women in feminism. Considering the concerns of black women (lesbians, working class etc), doesn't mean coddling black male abusers. Where has that even come from?

whodrankmycoffee · 13/01/2016 16:49

Thanks outsself

I think I have clarified in my own mind why I have a problem with this position you and others have taken. I believe there is a contiuum of sexism and racism etc.

However I think I have never experienced in my life a situation is which abuse is facilitated by the many in a pre planned manner. I have been groped in clubs and tubes and I have known I could seek help... bouncers would and could throw them out. London underground is currently running a campaign to encourage women to report groping etc.

What I am getting at is I have never been afraid that a group or single attacker could assault me with the assistance of other members of the public? I always assume that people around me are neutral if not a bit cowardly and I risk assess accordingly. I don't think this post cologne and that is new for me.

PoorFannyRobin · 13/01/2016 16:48

An adherence to intersectionality certainly seems insane at this point, but so many women seem willing to martyr themselves as well as the rest of us, unfortunately to that concept. It's very important to remember that intersectionality is a Marxist critical theory concept first and foremost. It is NOT a concept that particularly protects women.

TensionWheelsCoolHeels · 13/01/2016 16:36

My experience of club culture certainly isn't current but I've experienced the groping etc. even 'back in my day'. For me the distinction, if there is one, was that the groping/assaults I experienced didn't involve being surrounded by large groups of men all grabbing/groping/assaulting me at the same time, but of individual opportunists using the cover of a large group to carry out such behaviour. For me it never got past the outer clothing though, so never anything as bad as what's described in Cologne or Sweden etc.

I think that's why the mass attacks are shift, for me anyway - the MO involved takes planned organisation, collusion between very large numbers of men, co-ordination on a scale that surpasses what I have personally experienced. That's what is utterly terrifying about these types of attacks. The scale of how many men are involved to render the target (and anyone who is with them) utterly helpless. How can any one person ever escape that sort of targeted assault?

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 16:36

coffee I do not think the media are reporting this event because of their concern about sexual violence against women. I do think they are reporting it because they have an anti-migrant agenda.

I do not think we shut up about Cologne. I think we should stand shoulder to shoulder with the women of Cologne and point to the ways that this particular incident is the logical conclusion of the constant objectification of women in European culture.Sexual contact is for sale in Germany. Is is any surprise that men in those cultures think consent is a technicality?

What I think we do about Cologne is point to the peoiple who have roundly failed to account for the sexual assault culture that young people have grown up in and ask them why the silence about sexual violence but not this? Why the dismissal of women in clubs, but the basic belief that only good women doing virtuous things like getting an education should be unmolested but women in clubs have no such rights? If Colgne is wrong, then that culture is toxic and needs to be challenged.

Sexual assault happens here all the time. Women run the gauntlet of unwanted sexaul contact the whole fucking time in this country but when we complain about UK men doing it we are derided, dismissed and disbelieved. So excuase me if I don't believe the media have suddenly found their feminist pants when the perps are 'north African'.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 16:22

So I think it routinely happens in club culture, Almond. THough I can't give you an example that has been reported and framed in the same way this does not mean that it doesn't happen in the same way. Digital penetration, cassual sexual assault happens on a massive scale, but it does not create the same media event. My example is a huge one, club culture, as reported by young women and girls in this country. I believe them.

whodrankmycoffee · 13/01/2016 16:21

Outself can I ask directly then? Is your position that since you personally feel this type of sexual assault already exists and thus cologne and the current fallout is standard racism?

So do we all just go back to business as usual campaigning for non gendered toys, more women in stem and better funding for refuges? I listened to woman's hour and various news reports and wep lady on c4 news and I felt like my concerns were being hushed up by the very movement supposed to represent them.

almondpudding · 13/01/2016 16:16

It happens all the time but you can't give a remotely similar example?

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 16:13

2016 Can I ask you how you would feel if you did believe in that report? So for me it is easy to believe because the way I witnessed hearing about it was incredibly convincing and because in subsequent discussions with young women it has been reaffirmed. I accept that for you hearing it from me you can't believe it, fine.

But can you understand why for me, with that in my world view, this discussion and horror about Cologne seems highly suspect? Being that in my world, this sort of thing happens all the time but it is dismissed and disbelieved by even people in a feminist discussion.

whodrankmycoffee · 13/01/2016 16:09

This is why I struggle with feminism.

Women are literally being chased off the streets of major European cities and we are discussing the appropriate words to define the perpetrators?!

By all means let's talk about domestic violence and marginalisation and sexism. But to quote an older thread this conversation seems to assume all the women are white and all the men are black.

The men in the square on Nye I imagine are even worse behind closed doors with "their own women" who unlike European resident women will struggle to get their voices and stories out there.

There are limited resources out there and for all the thought experiments posited, back in the real world we can allocate resources to the worst abuses or we can sprinkle a little over every instance of sexism.

almondpudding · 13/01/2016 16:08

Well, having no means of exit could happen to a woman in a club, but you never mentioned it in your example.

So are there any actual examples of where hundreds of women and girls were assaulted by groups of civilian men blocking their means of escape (and detaining somebody by force is surely an additional offence), and what was the response to that by the government, police and media?

I would also say that women are not responding in the same way. Because you claimed that women in the club found this to be normalised among women, while women and girls in Cologne were not expecting this and did not consider it normal. The police and various commentators online are considering both within a normal range of violence against women, but I have not read the victims in Cologne claiming that.

TheXxed · 13/01/2016 16:02

m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5198716

Iggy Azalea had to stop crowd surfing because people kept trying to finger her.

I dodo had it spot on upthread.

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 16:00

It is you I don't believe Outself. I think you are full of nonsense.

MelindaMay · 13/01/2016 15:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

kesstrel · 13/01/2016 15:44

and I realise that they will make people uncomfortable

Oh dear, that actually made me laugh out loud. Talk about smug! Over a transparent attempt to frame and narrow the debate in a way that suits your own agenda! Sorry, I've seen this exact tactic before, including the use of the word "uncomfortable", and the people who use it are always certain that anyone who doesn't agree with them in all particulars is a bigot in need of condescending enlightenment. As I said before, sorry, not playing.

MelindaMay · 13/01/2016 15:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 15:32

BTW on lying or dismissing:

"I don't believe this is happening" it was reported by a group of unknown-to-each-other young women in front of a large crowd at FiL 2014. So if you don't believe them, then you are accusing them of lying or extreme distortion.

and

'don't go to the club' as a way to not experience sexual assault is victim blaming. I'm not distorting or lying or twisting what anyone has said, they said that stuff.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 15:29

I am not suggesting censor the media on Cologne. I am just asking why it is you think they are not doing so, in the case that they self censor on the everyday sexual assaults that happen to WAG in this country?

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 15:27

I'm not suggesting wear two pairs of knickers, please reread as you have got the wrong end of the stick. It is victim blaming to suggest that women in clubs have forfited their right to remain unmolested.

"Sexual assaults which are digital penetration in a public space from which your means of escape is limited" can apply both to the club situation and to Cologne. In this sense they are alike. Especially to the women involved

kesstrel · 13/01/2016 15:26

Interesting choice of options for your thought experiment there Hmm. Sorry, not playing.

To get back to the original issue: I disagree with self-censorship, especially by the media, over any aspect of violations of womens' rights. And I would add that if it appears to people that this is being done for "PC" reasons it is likely to be counter-productive and provoke a backlash. We've certainly seen that with Rotherham etc.