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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is there a conflict between PC speech codes and the need to name sources of misogynistic violence?

263 replies

OTheHugeManatee · 12/01/2016 10:21

I've been following debates around the 'trans' issue on FWR with interest for some time. More recently I've also been appalled by the mass sexual attacks in Cologne and the related issue of the stilted, minimising way those attacks have been discussed - particularly in the left-leaning press.

It's got me wondering about possible conflicts between PC speech codes and feminist analysis. I think this is a feature of both these issues. To be clear, by 'PC speech codes' I mean the cultural taboos that make it socially unacceptable to make generalisations about certain groups of people.

In trans debates, trans people are cast as a minority within a minority, and women are re-framed as the ones with privilege who must cede space to ease their suffering. Much of the feminist discussion around this is, as I understand it, devoted to challenging this narrative.

In the Cologne attacks, there was a visible reluctance by left of centre media to be explicit about the cultural/ethnic dimension to the attacks. The implicit view, from some quarters, seems to be that the right of white Western women to move about at night free from sexual assault weighs equally - or even lower - than the right of refugees to be protected from ugly stereotypes and/or racist reprisals, and that therefore the ethnic/cultural dimension of the attacks should be played down lest it exacerbate the suffering of refugees.

Elsewhere though in FWR I've seen robust defenses of the validity and need for generalisations, when it comes to class analysis of gendered violence. As I understand it, it is reasonable and valid to generalise about men as a class, even if NAMALT, because otherwise it is impossible to name the problem.

So what I'm wondering is this: if generalisations about men as a class are defensible in the interests of naming feminist problems, does the same apply to subsets of men? For example if misogynistic violence is a major problem among men of a particular culture in the UK (even relative to the general depressingly high levels of misogynistic violence in the general population, and even if NAM[culture]ALT), are we comfortable spelling that out?

If there are classes of people among whom misogynistic violence is more prevalent than the already high norm in the UK, I want to be able to name the problem. But I think there is often substantial resistance to this. There may well be valid and internally coherent reasons for this, but I think that from a feminist viewpoint we need to think about what's going on here.

I think this is very difficult ground for feminism. I'm loth to give examples, for fear of derailing what's intended as a general musing, but here's a fairly incendiary one. There are persistent and worrying rumours coming out of Sweden that sexual violence against women has skyrocketed in that country in recent years. This is clearly a feminist issue, and one that should surely be tackled vociferously by feminist campaigners. You'd think. However there are also persistent rumours that the overwhelming majority of this violence is perpetrated by recent immigrants of Arab/North African origin. But there is an almost total blackout in the 'respectable' mainstream Swedish press around this; the only news outlets willing to touch it are right-wing outfits such as Breitbart, and frankly bonkers conspiracy mongers like the Gatestone Institute.

The rumours relate to Sweden, but imagine you're a feminist in Sweden hearing these rumours. Do you write it off as lies and hate-mongering? Perhaps it is nothing but lies and hate-mongering. I don't know and can't verify it either way. I hope it is. But perhaps (like Rotherham) it isn't. So should you take a stand for women and say 'I'm going to risk contributing to a right-wing, racist discourse because if there is any possibility that it's true it should be investigated and stamped down on hard, because I want to stick up for the women being assaulted'? Or should we be saying 'Overall I think Swedish women have a pretty easy time of it, considered globally, and I don't want anyone conducting racist pogroms in my name, so I'm going to keep schtum'?

More generally, I am wondering if we need to think explicitly about what, as feminists, we do when there is a conflict between the aims and needs of feminism and those of other 'rights' groups. (It might just be me who needs to think about this; for all I know you've all already worked it out). But I think there are some conflicts, and the Cologne attacks and trans rights thing points to that. And I think there's a general, vague presumption among many people who consider themselves generally right-on that this is not the case, and that all the various needs of the various rights campaigns are either aligned by definition, or can somehow be balanced out. And yet, it seems self-evident to me that the needs of different rights campaigns often conflict; witness trans and women's rights. And when this 'balancing' takes place, again and again it is my observation that it's the rights of women that have to give ground.

My personal stance is that women's rights come first and if there is a conflict between women's rights and another rights campaign I'm for women. But what do others think? I think it's a live issue for feminism, a difficult one (at least difficult for feminists who think of themselves as generally left-wing, anti-racist, right-on etc) and one that I've not seen much discussion on.

OP posts:
venusinscorpio · 13/01/2016 21:00

I think Melinda, outsself, myself and others are arguing that we should look at how to prevent events like cologne in a broader context of sexual assault against women. Which is hard to do because this is seen as a special event.

It is a specific event involving a type of gang attack on women which hasn't really been seen much in Europe but happened in Tahrir Square and other places. It seems to have a name, which maybe a misinterpretation of the facts, but personally I'd like to hear those facts. Doing both, considering both the wider and specific cultural contexts, isn't mutually exclusive. Anything else is a bit of a timid, mealy-mouthed cop-out IMO.

slugseatlettuce · 13/01/2016 20:59

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almondpudding · 13/01/2016 20:57

On the In the news section there have been excellent posts connecting these incidents to wider misogyny in society by looking at the nature of the police and media response. You might want to look there Slug, although there are about five different threads so that section of the discussion might be difficult to find.

whodrankmycoffee · 13/01/2016 20:51

Also what happens if there is a coordinated attack of migrant women within a processing centre by migrant men. At what point do we talk about this and say this is unusual, and how do we tackle this manifestation of sexism. As well as totally unacceptable.

venusinscorpio · 13/01/2016 20:51

It is considered worse because it involves dozens of perpetrators simultaneously sexually assaulting a woman or girl. The number of perpetrators is considered an aggravating factor in UK law in rape and sexual assault, and this is also the case in the law of other countries.

It is also considered worse because it happened multiple times in the same location at the same time, which would be considered a breakdown of social order.

It is also considered worse because of the difficulty the victims faced in exiting the situation despite the public venue.

Number of perpetrators, number of victims, and victims struggling to exit situations of social disorder are all widely considered to be indicators of a worsening situation than we expect in civil society.

YYY. Great post almond.

This is a specific kind of attack. It is both relevant and important that all elements of it are examined.

slugseatlettuce · 13/01/2016 20:50

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slugseatlettuce · 13/01/2016 20:49

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venusinscorpio · 13/01/2016 20:46

I think what worries me about the focus on the ethnicity / religion of the Cologne attackers is, that such a focus can clearly be linked to a political objective (anti immigration) that has nothing to do with women's rights.

It's inevitable unfortunately, not a legitimate reason to cover things up and pretend there is no link between the attackers, and arguably, bending over backwards to ignore the issue hands an open goal to the far right.

whodrankmycoffee · 13/01/2016 20:41

My blackness does not shield me from assault. There isn't some black people meeting where I get stamped a special case exempt from the problems of marauding sexual predators.

And in the pecking order of justice black women don't fare massively well. So by backing away from Cologne for racial sensitivity reasons is this for my benefit because do tell me how.

TheWomanInTheWall · 13/01/2016 20:37

Good post Melinda.

whodrankmycoffee · 13/01/2016 20:33

Little secret I am not white or naive and I still think this is unusual.

Rape culture on college campus is a constant theme amongst my American relatives who are also black. It is a big deal.

I agree Central Park wildings were also a massive deal at the time.

I am not shocked that the daily mail is not taking a nuanced stance. But sexual assault is not a white lady problem. And framing it as such is just peculiar to me. Since I am very much female and not white. I expect the law to prosecute all offenders and if Katie Hopkins gets her rocks off at the same time so bloody what.

almondpudding · 13/01/2016 20:33

I would certainly point to male violence on campus as a reason to reduce male college admissions if the leader of my country put in place a policy that led to 80% of new students being male.

venusinscorpio · 13/01/2016 20:31

I'm coming steadily to the idea that 'intersectionality' needs a far more robust critique than it typically receives

Second that. I think the concept, as originally intended, has been so traduced by idiots as to be practically worthless.

6. Worrying about being called racist in discussions which touch on race is like the calling card of white privilege. There is no nice way of saying this, and I am aware of saying it to nice, well meaning people, but seriously, if you are worried about being called racist, what you are performing is your racial privilege. People who talk against racial prejudice in discussions like this are immediately shut down with 'you are calling me racist'. Privileging your own feeling that it is not nice to be called racist over the actual problem of creating racist discourses and challenging racist structures is definitionally a racial privilege.

There is no nice way of saying this, and I know you are well-meaning, but seriously, that sounds like a load of pointless, mealy-mouthed Oppression Olympics gibberish.

Outsself, you're being very smug and sanctimonious. Discussing cultural issues around the ways that men from the cultures reported were involved in these uniquely specific, probably connected incidents are misogynist is not "punching down". It's a reasonable examination of the facts we have available. It does not mean that people don't care about misogyny as a global issue, and yes it is minimising to suggest we should care more about the perpetrators than the victims and the women who might be hurt in future and not "punch down".

Attitudes like yours mean that in Sweden its now illegal to collect ethnicity data for sexual assaults. Attitudes like yours meant that not one fucking person would speak up for the Rotherham girls for over 10 years. And yes, I do see the connection between this and the trans agenda.

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 20:31

Exactly almond.

slugseatlettuce · 13/01/2016 20:30

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almondpudding · 13/01/2016 20:24

It is considered worse because it involves dozens of perpetrators simultaneously sexually assaulting a woman or girl. The number of perpetrators is considered an aggravating factor in UK law in rape and sexual assault, and this is also the case in the law of other countries.

It is also considered worse because it happened multiple times in the same location at the same time, which would be considered a breakdown of social order.

It is also considered worse because of the difficulty the victims faced in exiting the situation despite the public venue.

Number of perpetrators, number of victims, and victims struggling to exit situations of social disorder are all widely considered to be indicators of a worsening situation than we expect in civil society.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 20:18

Great post Melinda

MelindaMay · 13/01/2016 20:13

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PalmerViolet · 13/01/2016 20:11

Melinda, I think you're onto a loser here.

According to some, the women of FWR aren't posting enough, to others, we're not posting in a way they find acceptable. My reading of this and the other thread is that there is a massive lack of will to frame the situation as anything other than 'bad brown men like hurting white women' because looking at it in a nuanced way is anathema.

I fear that, unless we agree to take up pitchforks and light torches, the snarky replies and condescension will keep coming.

Just seems odd that we're slagged off if we discuss things about men as a class, but brown skinned men as a class or Muslim men as a class? Have at it. And if you don't, you're minimising what happened.

Ridiculous.

MelindaMay · 13/01/2016 20:02

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2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 19:53

sillage you have just illustrated that it can happen in any society. You have also shown how rare it is in our society at present. You had to cross the Atlantic Ocean, then Cross the North American Continent and go back in time 15 years to find an example.

sillage · 13/01/2016 19:50

Just like Cologne, the Central Park Jogger case focused much more on race than it did on male violence.

Now I'm going to share something very disturbing, proceed with caution.

www.alternet.org/story/12864/debate_grows_over_use_of_sexual_assault_photo

"A staff photographer for the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, Urban was in downtown Seattle's Pioneer Square covering the 2001 Mardi Gras celebration, which had erupted into rioting that would leave one man dead.

From his perch on a fire escape, he saw a group of young men start up the typical Mardi Gras chant demanding that a woman bare her breasts. She refused and they attacked. In an incident that, according to the newspaper, echoed several others that night, her clothes were ripped off and she was groped by dozens of hands before escaping. Urban caught it all on film."

After looking at the VERY DISTURBING photo linked here, will you keep repeating the lie that men ganging up to sexual assault women in public is limited to one race, nation, or color of man and some entirely new thing?

None of these men was ever arrested.

www.flickr.com/photos/jpallan/353067341

almondpudding · 13/01/2016 19:46

Rape by fraternities is also a major feminist concern, frequently discussed and written about in articles, features as a major plot point in tv shows etc.

TheWomanInTheWall · 13/01/2016 19:35

"IMO, this is what gives feminism a bad name. "

Great, thanks, that's helpful.Hmm

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 19:33

Make = male