Suicide-a feminist issue?

twitw

Haha - sorry, I am a buffoon. Obviously I know how to bookmark with my browser. I didn't think that would bookmark individual threads. Completely lacking in common sense at times.

I have really made myself chuckle with my own stupidity.

Unexp

I'm sure you know how to use your browser to bookmark. Or email MNHQ for tech questions.

standpoint epistemology

Thanks MM - I had this on my list, and we touched very briefly on it during my studies out of a comment in a tutorial.

cheers for that twitw - is there anyway to bookmark them or something?

Point I was making was that I need to do much more research and talking to different groups to get a range of different skews, to get more rounded discussions (plural). and in my day to day life, I am one man on a team of four. You would not believe the shit I know about different eyebrow treatments.

In terms of the issue of media presentation of women, I see that is a massive problem. I don't see that as necessarily negating my argument that there are also problems with the negative stereotypes and portrayal of men in film / tv. It is another problem.

I try to stay away from the newspapers. They are too easy to throw or burn when they annoy me.

Threads remain on MN forever unless they are in Chat.

In your day to day life, observe what you currently think of as rounded discussions, how many men/women are in each and what proportion of the time they take up. There is research that you can google about how a discussion is perceived as female dominated if women speak for 30% of the time.

You may also wish to google the Women In Journalism research from 2011 or so about how and why women feature in the news (largely as victims or princesses, as mentioned above) and think about how rounded the newspaper you read might be.

What about the TV programmes and movies you watch - do many of them feature multiple women talking to each other about something other than a man? And how does that balance against programmes that feature multiple men talking to each other about something other than a woman?

How about "Men - Patriarchy Smashing is Ace!"

Whilst I do love this as a working title, it unfortunately identified the problem, cause and solution at the start of the research, which probably doesn't leave me space to try to be objective (or more objective than I normally am).

I think perhaps the language of the discourse needs to be more rounded, and that, rightly, you can't get that solely on a forum about feminist ideas. But it has made me re-think my approach and given me additional counter arguments to consider.

I really like the distinction between a man and "men as a class" too.

Do these threads get archived? Or is there a way to save them to come back to them later? Not keen on printing it all out. Sorry, I am a luddite when it comes to this stuff.

Oh, and if I use the title, I will credit you.

Oh, and I agree (as do most feminists) that patriarchy can be bad for many men (boys don't cry, SAHDs are odd etc) - but if you're against patriarchy, then you're in line with feminist goals sooooo - do you need a book about Men's Rights? How about "Men - Patriarchy Smashing is Ace!"

" tainted with the guilt of patriarchy"

Nobody said this.

We are all raised in a patriarchy, men and women. Chances are, a female council HR employee doing the first sift on refuse worker applications would also favour men.

Female = good and male = bad is an incorrect (and quite self serving) straw man.

Think of Christianity in the UK. Even avowed atheists get Xmas and Easter holidays. Think about the fact that we all have a right to get married in our parish. That we often say "Jesus Christ!" Whatever our beliefs. Christianity is embedded in our society however few of us actively believe in it. It's "just one of those things".

Patriarchy is a backdrop - it's "just one of those things" that humankind is usually called mankind; that we have a House of Lords although female peers are Ladies; that legal documents say "he" as standard when referring to a person; that a parent pointing out an animal to a child in a book will more often than not say "look at that giraffe, isn't he tall?" That the back pages of the newspaper are 80%+ about male sport. That the front pages of the newspaper far more rarely rarely feature women except as princess, WAG, fashion plate or victim. That the term WAG but not the term HAB exists.

The default is male, and has been for sooooo long, that it is backgrounded, "just one of those things".

Sorry - probably get in trouble for re-raising a thread that died a couple of nights ago, but wanted to really quickly reply. I do actually do some paid work as well as being on here and they wanted some of my time!

Yes, I did take the hump at the post by MelindaMay - more because of the accusation that this personal anecdote had been invented to further my argument (which it didn't particularly, if anything it moved AGAINST the general thrust I was making). So, yes my last post was incredibly snarky.

As I accepted at the time, you would have to be a complete buffoon to come on a feminist forum and not expect the key consideration to be feminism. That is a question of context not logical argument.

I am genuinely struggling to understand the argument that is (I think, but I could have misunderstood) because I have been raised in a patriarchal society and benefitted from that, irrespective of who I am now or how I live my life, or my views on gender equality, I will always be tainted with the guilt of patriarchy?

What about the fact that being in a patriarchal society has actually damaged me? That it has impacted my life chances and my mental health? I just worry (and I am not saying that all of the contributors to this forum have said this) that it reads as female = good, male = bad.

This has been really, really, really helpful - particularly in stopping me heading off in the wrong direction with my arguments (as I was at the start of my involvement with this thread, and I probably still am in many ways).

Thanks to you all, and I might (if this is allowed, I will check with MNHQ) come back when I have a working hypothesis. To be fair, I am now wondering whether there is enough NEW thought that might make it worthwhile. My worry is that I will end up with something which is more about my whinges and moans at the unfairness of the world rather than something that hangs together as a cogent whole.

"However the rebuttal was that because of media and social pressure to exhibit empathy women are better placed to understand the male experience than vice versa."

I did not rebut your point with this; I clearly stated that we cannot fully appreciate each other's lived experience.

However, as you are here to gain insight into female characters for your books, I assume you allow that books, forums, media etc can help us to gain some understanding.

So not sure what you were deeply suspicious of, Dervel?

Agree, slugseat, shame that unexp is accusing Melinda of cheap shots.

Unexp, as you came here with the avowed intent of exploring your book idea about ways in which men are disadvantaged, it is kind of baffling why you would post an anecdote about why being a man isn't your chief disadvantage. If that point had come up in another context, it would not have been baffling.

Look just for a moment can you just put how that makes you feel aside for a moment, and just consider what someone must have felt like to post that in the first place?

Unex I've been posting here awhile and I'm a chap, I'm not a feminist and not always in agreement with everything that is said, but it's really not as simple as "fuck you, you are a man" as you put it.

Of course there is a feminist dominance it's a feminist forum. I would be surprised if there wasn't, it would be like turning up to a birdwatching forum to find the focus of discussion being badgers.

You're taking things a bit personally, take a deep breath and have a cup of tea.

In the media the only time anyone cares about male violence is when it's directed at other men or at themselves. Violence by men towards women is nearly always minimised or ignored.

And some people don't believe in the patriarchy

I don't think what Melinda said was deeply offensive, the only objection I would raise is that my own lived experience as a man has never led me to conclude I am entitled to women's bodies, childbearing or domestic labor.

I attempted to raise up thread that a man's lived experience will not be directly relatable to women in the same way men cannot directly relate to women's experience. However the rebuttal was that because of media and social pressure to exhibit empathy women are better placed to understand the male experience than vice versa.

I am deeply suspicious of this conclusion, however men have been explaining to women what their own lived experience means and is worth that it would be churlish of me to get offended by it.

Besides there is no way to establish the veracity of the claim either way. It would just be a circular debate that could go nowhere. Besides my experience of not being entitled to women doesn't magically cancel out another woman's experience of feeling treated that way.

I guess what I'm saying is I'll always raise a skeptical eyebrow when a woman makes assumptions about men's lived experiences, and expect the same when I make the same mistake.

Were there any working class women from a Northern town or any women with physical disabilities?

Not in my team of six. But absolutely in other roles at the same level in other teams in our head offices. Actually one of the women was in HR and was an almost exact match for my background, but I was in finance.

So....um...why are you here talking about the need for a men's-rights-movement-but-not-the-one-with-arseholes-no-very-different-from-that-one? Kinda baffled about that.

Exactly what I thought after I wrote it. Simply put because this was only talking about workplace achievement / position - and there are many other areas where it DOES matter (I currently believe). So the same, only without trying to poke fun at me for a cheap shot.

I could just as easily make up an anecdote about a Cambridge educated black man who is a partner in a city law firm, moaning to his white, female, working class cleaning lady about how hard his life is because of racism.

Although mine isn't made up, actually happened and it really isn't good form to suggest I am lying here. Not when I have done EVERYTHING I can on this forum to be open and honest. You would have known if the story wasn't true - I would have added a smilie face as I have been told to.

I wasn't trying to shut up the argument - why would I do that?

The point I was trying to make (although I don't think I did it well) is this belief that even if I do my best to fight for gender equality, behave in a way I believe appropriate, overcome numerous obstacles it doesn't matter because "fuck you, you're a man".

Actually, to be totally fair, I should expect that on a forum which is directly for feminism, taa daa the thing people see as most important is the battle facing feminism.

I would say very few white Europeans are imperialists, but white Europeans as a class benefit from the legacy of imperialism.

Ditto patriarchy - individual men aren't called patriarchs (that was unexp's word) but men as a class benefit from the patriarchy even if they were brought up by women etc. To go back to the refuse worker point - a man,whatever his upbringing. may well benefit in an application process against a woman because the interviewers would have been socialised to consider it men's work.

vesuvia How would that negate the premise that there are other factors that have a greater impact on your life chances ? I don't think he is claiming that being a women has no impact, just that other factors contribute to a greater extent. e.g. wealth, access to private education and connections.

Also, re identifying anyone who benefits from a system they reject as part of that system...this seems like shaky ground to me. Are all white europeans imperialists ? We all benefit from western powers exploiting brown skinned people and taking a vastly disproportionate share of the worlds wealth by military means.

Personally the statement that men are culturally taught that they will one day "own" a woman is deeply offensive and delusional.