Will true equality ever be achieved?

Maybe it is my recent bad experience but I am just very worried what will happen when men realise their patriarchal power is ebbing away fast and will never return.

Already happening bridle69: see Reggie Yates thread. The programme was bristling with the type of men who resent losing their power.

Expectations of parents have risen because the skills a person needs to acquire to be employable as an adult have increased, and the burden of teaching even basic skills has shifted from the school to the home.

Hence a rising burden on primary carers and a collapse of social mobility.

Fifty years ago my mother taught children to read. A class teacher now will expect most of the class to have been taught at home.

Seventy years ago my grandmother left school at sixteen and went into a job that would now require a degree to obtain.

If mothers stop doing all the extra stuff involved in parenting beyond letting a child freeze or starve to death, the people who pick up the pieces are usually primary school staff and pastoral staff in secondary school, generally other women.

There's a huge range of parenting between quibbling over party bows and social services knocking on the door. I would love to drop doing parenting 'my way' but I won't do, because it would be hugely damaging to my kids' lives.

Vintage, I think you are trivialising what women do.

It wont change much while we still have a patriarchal capitalist system. In addition with women who have 'made it' parroting how women need to man up etc.

Childcare needs to be sorted out to be honest, women need to be less guilted by their peers and elders that they are the defacto providers of the kids, that say having a SAHD is normal. Also that sharing the childs responsibilities is expected.

Men need to be getting involved more but everyone needs to persevere, not just give up and push them out as being another crap dad. The truly crap dads will fall to the bottom and its up to you whether you wan to be with them.

Hmmmm - cailin, can't agree with all that. Young women are actually out earning and better qualified than young men these days. Agreed that changes after they have children but it's not the case that they're forced into being the primary carer because they get paid less for being female.

Agree the having it all dream becomesore distant because of rising expectations of Why parenting should be, but honestly, does anyone believe it's men who've raised those expectations?

I agree society does stop them. That's the point. It's not individual women being controlling - women have historically had no power whatsoever to stop men doing whatever they wanted to do, up to an including raping and killing them. We live in a patriarchal society, a society that separates work into men's work (work that attracts monetary reward, recognition, etc) and women's work (unpaid work that is invisible). This benefits young men, who get to carry on their careers unhindered once children come along and disadvantages young women, who are pushed into caring whether they want to or not, but IMO in the long run it benefits nobody and disadvantages everybody. Men eventually realise, I think, what they missed out on by not being a true parent.

I think very few women want to be strung out and stressed organising the entire household single handedly while her partner takes little or no interest. Women and men have children together - it's not too much to expect that they parent together, to a decent standard.

Difficult to argue with that. I think there probably are some men who would like to be primary carers but agree that women are not directly stopping them although society might be. But there has been a change since my I was a kid where I remember actually never seeing some peoples dads, although they did exist !

I entirely agree that it's a cop out Freshwater. Choices are shaped and influenced by the society we live in. It is absolutely not the case that there are millions of men out there desperate to be primary carers with millions of women standing in their way.

I don't think it's a coincidence that at the same time as the possibilities of good careers opened up more to women, ie in the last thirty years or so, that at the same time, standards of how much work, time and resources "ought" to be devoted to raising children "properly", also soared. Convenient, hmmm? The unattainable goal of Having It All remains unattainable (for women), because at any time it looks like it might be within our grasp, the rules change. More is expected.

I think it's a complex brew of how this came to happen and there's no one cause to point at and say "that! That's how it's happening!". Expectations - one's own and other people's. Ingrained messages from childhood about responsibilities. Internalised sexism. Guilt. Sense of duty. Personal preference. Not wanting to rock the boat and be one of "those" women. The Patriarchy, obvs.

It all contributes, and it's not just a question of the choices that each individual woman makes, but of what happens collectively. Choices don't happen in a vacuum, and mainstream feminism of the last 20 years seems to have moved away from the class analysis of women's issues, and towards the power of individualism and choice, and I think we're seeing the limitations of that approach now. The retort to highlighting continuing inequality (gendered or otherwise, say with poverty) seems to be "well, that's what people choose, if they felt that strongly, they'd choose something else", but I think that's a cop-out.

'Is your position cailin that some women only do it because the men in their lives can't be bothered ? i.e. neither of them really want to?'

I think very few women want to be strung out and stressed organising the entire household single handedly while her partner takes little or no interest. Women and men have children together - it's not too much to expect that they parent together, to a decent standard.

Vintage - I never said that women have to do it because men would be rubbish at it. I said that a lot of men just don't bother doing it. As you say there are complex reasons for that - for the fact that women do take on the massive burden of organising the lives of their families and men don't. That's the important bit IMO.

I'm sure there are complex reasons for it but I don't see how asserting that women have to do it because men would be rubbish at it is any different to asserting that women arent capable of being CEO or whatever and changing that attitude is/was a necessary place to start

Is your position cailin that some women only do it because the men in their lives can't be bothered ? i.e. neither of them really want to ?

I think there is an element of truth that some parents (not just but mostly women) are obsessed with their kids to an extent that maybe wasn't there in the past, now days kids cannot do anything or go anywhere without being accompanied by a responsible adult, fear of traffic, fear of paedophiles etc, not reading enough, eating enough, having their 5 a day, not "where they should be", not got enough friends etc etc etc. It's not a f**n competition.

I actually believe that a more laid back approach to it all might be a better idea for everyone.

Do you think women are born wanting to be the ones to organise the household? Or is there some other reason they are like that?

Yes. I'm well aware that in many (most) households all the organisation falls to women but I would argue that is absolutely because thats the way they want it. They (we) need to have our children's lives organised the way we would do it.

Dh could do it and the kids would be ok but it wouldn't be the way I'd do it and we would fall out over that.

It's not something that's going to happen overnight though - if peopleblike the posters here are saying I can't risk letting him take it on, how will he learn?

If men wanted to be primary carers they had every opportunity to. But they didn't do it. The only reason they are becoming primary carers now is because women are finally saying that they no longer want to be forced into that role.

I'm not even sure why I'm arguing this point to be honest. It is beyond ludicrous to suggest that men are chomping at the bit to stay at home and change shitty nappies and wipe the bums of their elderly mothers and that the only thing that's stopping them is controlling mothers.
Men have had the power and influence to shape the world in whatever way they wanted for the last 2000 years. Up until the start of the 20th century women couldn't vote, have a job, say no to sex when married, own property, or get an education. To suggest that with absolutely zero power they've prevented all these devoted fathers from staying at home because of their high standards is so utterly fucking crazy I can't really believe I've wasted my time talking about it.

I have no doubt that there are women out there who won't allow their partners to take on childcare. But my only experience has been of women strung out trying to keep on top of everything desperately trying to get their partners to just take on a few of the tasks. I was in that position myself until I threatened DH with divorce - he is now totally organised and on top of things. But at no point did I ever stand in the way of him being a parent - it had to get to an ultimatum before he would do his share.

Any kind adult can play and serve up a meal. What is really important is the the thinking and organising and that usually falls to mothers IME. They are the ones who keep track of who's growing out of what clothes, who needs a haircut, when the next dentist appointment is due. Keeping on top of these things is not a matter of impossibly high standards, it's just basic in order to keep life running smoothly and it takes a huge amount of mental effort. If those things aren't done it's unlikely anyone is going to die but it is likely that the child's life will be affected - lack of engagement at school, poorer health, a scruffy appearance that can affect an older child's confidence.

All I know is that all the men I know who have had to (or been allowed) to taken on the primary carer role have done a decent job. There's a difference between letting dc eat junk and watch TV all day on the very rare occasion that you get them to yourself and thinking that it's OK to do that everyday. I dont think most men would. Some would I'm sure, just as some women do.

This assumption that women need to do everything because otherwise it would be done badly is just as bad as the assumption that it's women's work.

I don't know if you're deliberately misunderstanding what's being said Vintage or whether you've just not read the thread. I am not talking about whether working in the garden is better than doing arts and crafts. I'm talking about lower standards - poorer quality food, little or no interaction, lack of interest in schoolwork etc. You seem to be implying that women just needlessly cling to doing things a certain way, which hasn't been my experience. My experience has been that women put a huge amount of effort into making their children's lives as orderly, safe and beneficial as possible while their male partners just chip in now and again. I know that had my father become a single parent to me and my sisters we would have had a horrible childhood.

It's not a lower standard, it's a different one. My parents actually shared parenting pretty well. My dad worked shift and my mum was one of the only ft wohms at my school (early 70s)

When dad wasn't on a shift he was in charge. We were fed the kinds of things he liked to eat. He would never have done arts and crafts with us but we helped in the garden or on the car. We played out rather than having play dates - with a lot more freedom than mum would have allowed, we occupied ourselves while he did his hobbies, whereas mum would have played with us. But who's to say which way was best?

Thanks Lass. I have AIBU hidden so wasn't aware. Hope you're ok, OP.

I think the parenting thing is a bit of a red herring. The problem starts further back. Women are not encouraged to start careers that are demanding. More importantly, even when they do, they tend to do less well and earn less money. So by the time they are ready to have a family it often makes financial sense for them to be primary caters because their partner earns more. Or perhaps they are happier giving up or reducing work because, consciously or not, they are tired of the constant fight at work and this gives them a viable, compelling and worthwhile alternative.

I am endlessly tired of seeing organisations or job types that are filled with women being managed by men. And it's not just at the top levels. In a large organisation it's still men who get promoted first and pay increases etc. This is a reality even if it's not true for everyone. And because women have been socialised to accept this AND to question themselves and/or expect more of themselves, we don't always fight it.

So, for example, young man gets promoted to junior manager role. Similarly qualified young women tend to think a) he deserves it more or b) I didn't get it because I got that one thing wrong (note that studies show that women tend to believe they should only get a promotion when they are already Achieving all they need while men consider themselves long before. Ditto, if a job is completed men tend to view it as a success while women will worry about one thing that went wrong. This is yet more socialisation) or c) they will be pissed off but will not feel they can do anything about it. This demotivates them and can lead to poorer performance over time that has a continued knock on effect.

my point is that parenting and cchild birth just exacerbates problems that already exist.

The OP may have more pressing things on her mind. She has started a thread in AIBU which you may wish to support her on.