Did anyone see that Reggie Yates programme about men and feminism the other day?

I watched it when it was repeated a day or two ago.

I agree with all the above comments - some of the points made about men's issues (like high suicide rates) are important and do need addressing, but none of the speakers seemed to have any indication to actually do something to solve these issues (set up funding, encourage awareness, lobby parliament, or anything) - they just used them as examples for their 'wahhh everything is unfair, feminists are so mean and ugly' arguments.

I would love to see the veracity of the 'men in prison are raped more than all women, ever' statistic.

I was surprised at the number of women at the dapper laughs gig, and tbh, it didn't appear that they were appreciating the jokes as a satirical piece against men, as per his own argument. I usually try to never judge, but the sight of them laughing at his terrible, offensive jokes did make me

It's on Iplayer now.

I just watched this episode last night, and I saw this phrase recently in relation to BlackLivesMatter and I think that it's poignant in this instance also:

When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression

Yes.... scary shit, no?

Right, but the point of the survey was that the answer changes depending on how you ask the question. One would have thought that in that case, they probably put a fair bit of thought into the wording of the question.

They reference another survey which did list the questions:

^Specifically, when survey items describe behaviors (i.e.,
‘‘Have you ever coerced somebody to intercourse by
holding them down?’’) instead of simply label them (i.e.,
‘‘Have you ever raped somebody?’’), more men will admit
to sexually coercive behaviors in the past and more women
will self-report past victimization (Koss 1998).^

and found the same thing.

And it all boils down to the fact that many men don't seem to realise that women are people. That raping someone 'with no risk of punishment' is still raping someone. That if they think it's OK to forcefully coerce a woman into having sex then they're saying it would be perfectly fine for someone to forcefully coerce them into being penetrated.

Right-ho, perhaps you can abandon your little epistemological derail then.

I read the paper several times that was linked.

The paper itself does not reveal the actual questions used in the survey so it is impossible to tell whether the underlying data or conclusions are valid.

Gosh, you've done an awful lot of assuming there, for someone with such a rigorous social science background, ABetaDad. You'll get on better on this board if you don't assume the posters here need men to explain the problems with disseminating research to them.

I did the googling:

online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/vio.2014.0022

Sorry to post and run off! Busy couple of days. Yes, PUA is pick up artist.

Vesta - exactly as you say. The wording is important. I don't know where to look for this survey. It must be buried in an academic papers somewhere and then quoted and requoted and misquoted I suspect.

If, for example, you ask young men whether they would be willing to commit a crime with a maximum prison sentence of 10 years if you were guaranteed not to get away with it? They might say yes if they are thinking about say robbing a bank but no if they are think about rape.

If you ask men whether they would be willing to rape, if they were guaranteed not to get caught then the answers would likely be much in the minority compared to the responses if you asked them whether they would you be willing to rob a bank and steal £1 million if you were guaranteed to walk free.

Subtle differences in how the question is asked makes a big difference. People designing questionnaires have to be extremely careful not designing questions that lead to answers they want.

I don't deny the way men think about and treat women is dreadful and needs to change but quoting misleading statistics really doesn't help.

I suggest you google it, I would have to google it, too, and with your academic background you probably know better where to look than I do.

Of course the wording makes a difference - I found it rather interesting that they got different responses when using the word "rape". I am sure they asked questions like "would you feel entitled to sex after paying for dinner", so it is the maximum number of men who feel that it is okay to rape under certain circumstances, but it's still creepy as hell.

After all, even if I don't get raped by them because I don't let men buy me dinner, I still interact with men who may have raped, or may in the future rape a woman. Which is something I really don't want to.

Vesta - I would want to see the exact wording of the questions in that survey.

I have an academic social science background and the design and interpretation of questionnaire surveys is very complex and can make a big difference to the responses and conclusions that are drawn.

@ABetaDad: Only 1%? Must be the good company you keep. I simply cannot believe that the 10-30% of men who are rapists don't hate women. Sure, a large percentage of them might just view women as objects, with no strong feelings involved, but 1% seems a bit of a low percentage.

(In a study, 10% of male college students admitted they would rape a woman if there was no punishment to be feared. 30% admitted they would "force a woman to have sex with them", so, it's just a difference in the wording. I secretly hope that all the rapists in the country went to that college where the study was done, but it's not likely. )

well, that was interesting viewing
I don't get Roosh saying this article was satire
I always though Dapper Laughs shouldnt have been invited on to Newsnight though
I can't work out if Milo is playing a part to make a living
I agree that many guys think like this, my mum remembers being told I was "too independent" because I didn't want to get married

Something about MGTOW, they say that marriage, mortgage, kids is a trap for men. I think marriage and kids could be considered a trap for either gender and I do think it's alarming that it's sold as important. But I'm sure a MGTOW would be horrified at a woman saying that. So on one hand they seem to hate women who want marruage and children and say it's a trap but they hate women like me who didn't want those things.

And I shudder to think how they'd feel about how many hours I worked to get my mortgage, or how they'd feel about me, my mortgage, and single and childfree life add up to so much happy.

So they're gonna hate women no matter what. But equally they might be horrified by racism? I dunno., maybe they aren't!

PUA = Pick Up Artist
I think.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickup_artist

Basically the men that should be avoided. If their kind never succeeded in their "Pick Ups" then they'd slowly vanish, hopefully.

PUA?

Parick - "I wonder if they grew up in very isolated or sex-segregated environments"

No. It makes no difference. I know men who went to single sex school, mixed sex school, heterosexual men, homosexual men. Upper class, midlde class, working class. There is no obvious pattern. Its unfathomable. Its just irrational prejudice like racism.

"It scares me as I wonder just how many men have this anger and hate towards women."

I have a female friend and we were chatting a few years back and the subject somehow came round to discussing how men and women relate to each other as people.

I told her how some men absolutely hate women. These are men who have wives, daughters, responsible jobs, intelligent, upstanding members of the community, normal in every way. However, when they are alone with other men they say things they would never say I front of other men. Stunningly shocking.

My friend has a lovely husband and went to an all girls school. Been a SAHM and was aghast that men were really like that.

Its true some man absolutely hate women. They live with women. They don't beat them up. Good providers, Good Dads too apparently. They just despise women.

I am a man and I would say about 1% of men are like this who I meet. Its irrational hatred.

The part that mkes me laugh the hardest is the picture of Reggie with lipstick and his nails painted etc and Roosh questions how many "straight men would pose for a photo like it"

Only the straight men who aren't boring?

I am a big fan of Jim C. Hines, who did some trying to copy the near-impossible cover poses of female main characters on book covers. It's hilarious. And I do think that probably not many men would do that - makes him the more awesome.

Probably not what Roosh meant?

Futrelle wrote

Still, seeing him present his ridiculous “philosophy” live highlights not just how noxious his ideas but also how incredibly, well, dumb they are. Roosh clearly wants to upgrade his status from that of a burned-out, rape-apologizing pickup artist to that of a great thinker. The only problem is that thinking isn’t something he does particularly well

I only watched a few minutes and came to the same conclusion. And his tour wasn't exactly playing Wembley Stadium.

David Futrelle has written about this.

iPlayer link

I had a period through the rabbit hole a couple of years ago when I briefly dated a PUA. I was fascinated by the whole thing and spent quite a bit of time lurking on their forums to try to get my head round it. They have a certain language. As a result I worked out that a guy I had been seeing before that and who I was still friends with had also been a PUA. I challenged him and he admitted it. They're pretty predictable.

UKmm, I would say it's all about coercion, to a greater or lesser extent. It's a continuum and on one end is rape. Some of them are fairly close to that line.

I haven't seen it and it's not on iplayer. However from the clip on BBC website I am veering towards agreeing with UninventiveUsername's husband.

I don't know (nor want to know ) much about him but the links below are in the top Google entries. Starbucks are peddling a homosexual agenda. There may well be other swivel eyed loons who believe that, motivated by their own brand of swivel - eyed lunacy whether religious or extreme politics but they are minority extremists too. I can almost forgive Starbucks' creative tax accounting for pissing him off so much.

www.rooshv.com/why-heterosexual-men-should-boycott-starbucks

mobile.twitter.com/rooshv/status/679822228012318721?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

The comment about no straight man would pose for a photo like that is hilarious. Without even applying any brain power there's Kurt Cobain, Dominic Cumberbatch, Johnny Depp , Keith Richards and countless other rock stars.