Islamaphobia?

"I came to think that as the possibility of god is so microscopically small and that from a "small p" political point of view, agnosticism gives succor to theists, it is important to identify as an atheist."

Bert, I don't understand. Are you actually an agnostic who self misidentifies in order to make a point to others?

Elendon
Trump is a bit of a wanker, but I haven't noticed him inciting mass murder,.
Why do you support it?

Being an atheist is believing in 3 less gods than christians do, except that those christians will argue that their 3 gods are only one, except when they are three.

So to reform the question are ISIS and their followers as bad as those who believe and follow Trump?

An atheist is simply someone who says "Your God story makes no sense, so I'm not buying it"

Well I'm worse than Buffy because I really want to ask what it would mean for a "God story" to "make sense"... Probably time for

On a different note - someone, almond I think, posted way back up about the difference between a raised atheist undergoing religious conversion and someone who'd be brought up in with religion and how the former is more vulnerable to the cult-like aspects… I've been thinking about this a lot recently, as a very close friend - lifelong atheist - has converted to Buddhism (got very defensive when I used the words "religious conversion" when trying to put forward his family's point of view but has now accepted it, sort of, I think…). It has been having a negative effect on relationships with family and close friends and it's funny because if the conversion had been to one of the Abrahamic religions I think people would be more clear and confident in expressing some of their concerns, but it seems to be incredibly difficult to do that with Buddhism because, hey, it's Buddhism, which means "acting with love and kindness" and not having to believe in a deity etc.

Interestingly, a major aspect of this conversion is spending a lot of time at single sex retreats, where people are supposed to leave their gender stereotypes behind and form the sort of spiritual friendships and openness that are difficult to achieve in mixed environments…

So Cote, those 'muslims' who believe in the Caliphate and have declared a Caliphate are not representative of Muslims?

Just like the Republican party disassociated itself from Trump? So those who cheered Trump are not representative of the Republican Party?

According to Wiki there now no longer any political caliphs but there are still caliphs

Though non-political, some Sufi orders and the Ahmadiyya movement[34] define themselves as caliphates. Their leaders are thus commonly referred to as khalifas (caliphs)

Elendon I assumed you meant either living under a caliphate which extremists apparently want to create ; or an Islamic state which applies Sharia law such as Brunei or Saudi

According to Wiki A caliphate (Arabic: خِلافة‎ khilāfa) is a form of Islamic government led by a caliph (Arabic: خَليفة‎ khalīfah pronunciation (help. · info))—a person considered a political and religious successor to the Islamic prophet, Muhammad (Muhammad ibn ʿAbdullāh), and a leader of the entire Muslim community. The Sunni branch of Islam stipulates that, as a head of state, a Caliph should be elected by Muslims or their representatives.[4] Followers of Shia Islam, however, believe a Caliph should be an Imam chosen by God from the Ahl al-Bayt (the "Family of the House", Muhammad's direct descendants)

Neither the rulers of Brunei or Saudi are elected and I have no idea if they meet the second criterion. From the point of view of would I want to be a woman in their countries it hardly matters.

I do know however that from what I read now of Brunei it seems a place I would not want to live, compared to what it was when I was there in the 80s when Sharia law did not apply.

So to answer would I prefer to live in a country where Islam is the main religion or where Christianity as applied in Western Europe? I would prefer Western Europe.

Are they not Muslim leaders who took over from Muhammad ?

No. That is why we have people like you to explained isn't that the whole reason why we come on Mn?

"followers who will practice what they are taught by the caliphs"

And who might those "caliphs" be? Do you even know what caliph means?

Some people get annoyed when people talk about ignorance, but seriously

When you say atheist Jew. Do you mean the Jewish person as a race in Israel or as a Jewish religion as in Judaism.

Elendon - No I don't know what you mean. You talked about belief in the Caliphate. It doesn't exist, except in the delusions of grandeur of ISIS. If and when it does one day, I will believe that it exists.

This is not a general comment about everyone who might be under the impression that atheism is a belief. Buffy was rather ignorant about what an atheist is at the beginning of the thread. I think she has now understood what people have told her how evolution, big bang etc are not an essential part of being an atheist and that it is just about a lack of belief in deities.

She was also saying stuff like "science and evidence are belief systems" and accepted that she was ignorant about certain issues of this debate before this thread, saying "I'll accept the charge of having conflated atheism and science. That has been the entirety of my experience with it. I had no idea, for example, that there are atheist Jews.".

That's not what I asked Cote. And you know it.

And one thing I hate about Christian doctrine is that when they are asked a question they don't like it's often answered with a question.

The difference is you will get more followers who will practice what they are taught by the caliphs than you will do with Donald trump unless he becomes president.

Fair enough.

Female Genital Mutilation has nothing to do with Islam. It is a local African tradition. Most Muslim countries don't practice it. Some Christian African countries do.

The highest number from that link is Muslim based countries with the exception of Ethiopia and Eritrea.

Buffy - have had this debate a few times with various people and have pretty much word for word said what you have posted here - fortunately no one has yet implied that I'm poorly-read, ignorant etc. etc. for regarding disbelief as part of a system of belief.

What do you mean "believe in the Caliphate"?

There is no Caliphate in Islam anymore. It was abolished when the Ottoman Empire ended and Turkey was founded.

ISIS can declare themselves a Caliphate all they want but the rest of the Muslim world isn't signing up for it, which means there is no Caliphate.

Are we all agreed that those who believe in the Caliphate are as bad as those who praise Donald Trump?

Another African country where Muslims are not the sole perpetrators of FGM:

Liberia (85% Christian, 13% Muslim) has a 66% FGM rate.

"It's more traditional than Christian or Islam based. "

That is exactly what I said in the post downthread that you criticised:

CoteDAzur Fri 11-Dec-15 14:47:27
Female Genital Mutilation has nothing to do with Islam. It is a local African tradition.

Wherever you "checked", maybe you need to check again so you can see the number of Protestants as well as Orthodox Christians.

Ethiopia - According to the national census conducted in 2007:

Orthodox Christians 43.5%
Protestant 18.6%
Muslim 33.9%
Other 2.6%

Orthodox Christians + Protestants = 43.5% + 18.6% = 62.1%

Figures are the same in Index Mundi, Wikipedia etc

On Ethiopia from reading about it. It's actually the local healers that perform it. Not the church. It's more traditional than Christian or Islam based.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3282605/

On the website above. You will find that the countries that have a very high rate, the more prevalent the Islamic faith the higher number. the rates in Mali is even at 92%. In Nigeria. It's most in the north of the country.

The studies in Ethiopia they do mention one tribe. Which had a very high rate too.