Islamaphobia?

Theydontknow religion, laws, security cameras and the other things a like are sometimes not for the benefit of the individual. It's to keep society in check. Morals are human construct. We decide what we think should be good and we decide how to police it. It's all about control.

For example if you can't control your people you will not be able to have a government. Every now and then you have the anomaly of humans who rebel and come up with something new. Best example is Galileo being persecuted for saying that the earth was not the centre of the universe.
Or the suffragettes campaigners in the sixties. Things like that is always a shock to society but with time we people start to understand. I think that is why you here the saying "shock to the system ". Someone has done something that is out of the ordinary. Be it morally or intellectually.

I don't actually think religion benefit women most of the time. You have got to be rebellious at

Cote I agree with what your saying and she was not being sarcastic.

Moon you absolutely speak my language. I agree with everything your saying.

Moonstruck, whilst I believe that "being watched" is a part of what makes people good, along with what your parents taught you, I also think people take it on board, question as to why certain rules exist and internalise the altruism until it becomes part of them.

It is probably easier to have an overarching God telling you you should do something just because and not question it but that doesn't mean that humans wouldn't have progressed without it. And more often than not religion has acted as a brake on moral progress.

Those babies you talk about. Look at the Magdelene laundries, look at any woman who has ever been stoned for adultery. That's not an example of religion being morally good and humane, but entirely the opposite.

laurie - Was it no clearer after my last post?

Catholic friend assumes atheists can't be moral, which means she thinks people won't be moral unless there is a God watching over them.

What does that say about her? Do you think she would act morally if one day she stops believing in God?

This isn't about me or what I think.

Cote - I took your "proposition" to be:

Clearly there are people who are moral and decent only because they think a deity is watching them. How much more awful would people act towards each other if they realize that it is all just a ludicrous story?

I was questioning this - I'm glad at least one person understood that. I did politely ask whether you were being sarcastic when you'd said the above and, if not, I'd try to rephrase the question but just got a "forget it. sigh" response…

moonstruck - do you feel that there are negative aspects for women being part of such a network of "shared commonalities/responsibilities"?

(as deb said it can all be tracked anyway no matter how many multiple screen names or accounts. Wasnt the purpose though to add another layer of bother for trolls?

"You are questioning the proposition that some people only behave well because of constraints their religion, because a god is watching"

The reason why her question to me didn't make sense was because it wasn't my "proposition". It was slug's Catholic friend who said atheists must have no morals or principles because they don't believe in God, the obvious implication being that she believes people can't behave morally or with good principles if they don't believe in God.

Moonstruck - signing in by email account doesn't mean less anonymity. Just google free email accounts.

I know on Mumsnet there is this tendency amongst atheists to get talking about religious belief in terms of science and the God of the gaps, the only mention on the social pros of religion either the much used 'religion is the opium of the people' Or as an emotional security blanket. But there is alot more to say and study than that. I find The older I get and being a mother now raising children I appreciate stability and security far more than I did pre children. The importance of the commune as a support in bringing the helpless baby upto adulthood across near 2 decades isn't just for humans. the mother lioness raising her young in a pride with others has more chance that her offspring will grow to adulthood even if something happens to her than the mother cheetah raising her children on her own in the wild. I spoke about it in an earlier post yesterday but the importance of the social networks and shared commonalities/ responsibilities religions provide even in largely self sufficient technologically advanced secular socieities I think that women have a particular affinity with.

Yes they are dim debs it's an illusion but even we here on this thread or MUMSNET in general are abit less inhibited because we are all behind a computer screen, less pressure to be nice so more - let's say - frank. The abuse of that by some people has meant recently we have all started signing in by email account so less anonymity than before: a good example of watched people are good people.

The concept of 'being watched' whether by the all seeing eye of a deity or a CCTV camera is part of how large numbers of humans from varied backgrounds unknown to each other regulate and maintain society. Rather than faith in A deity and heaven and hell or reincarnation, good karma/bad karma, it's in the power of the state to enforce the law. Is it the speed cameras we keep to the speed limit for? Would we pay as much into the welfare system If it wasn't a tax that the HMRC could chase one to the ends of the earth for? Do I honour my creditors because I know they can put a black mark on my credit record that would mean others wouldn't 'trust' me to pay on time? Britain and western society in general is far more individualistic than most, 'live the way you like be true to yourself' etc but even so there must still be some sort of nod to communal norms and expectations. There's a whole range of behaviour before one gets to 'do not lie/steal/cheat/kill', somebody could avoid all those things but still not be an easy or 'good' person to live by, work with, etc.

But watched people are good people, look no further than the Internet and how much trolling goes on under the guise of anonymity.

That is because some people are just not bright enough to think beyond the trolling. They forget that they can be traced.

Moon you hit the nail on the head there with your observation.

I actually think if people are not controlled in one way or form the world will be chaos. Worse than what we have now. Some people are just horrible and it does not matter whether they have God in them or not. It will always manifest it self in one way or another.

Posted too soon. The reasons why we are good/ why we obey the law range from at one end - simply because the person thinks it's the right thing to do to the other simply to avoid punishment and everything in between, including the concept of "do as you would be done by" without which civilised society crumbles.

Without a belief that doing good is the right thing to do and a fear of punishment society breaks down.

I'm a little sceptical that without a fear of a deity people who otherwise do no harm would ignore all the other societal and legal constructs.

Bertran For me, spiritualism specifically means contacting spirits and that sort of thing. So perfectly compatible with atheism. If bonkers. But sadly being an atheist does not protect you from being bonkers!*
*
This confuses me even more or makes me question my understanding of atheism.
Also my understanding of spiritualism even though this on its own is a broad subject.

You don't have to answer the following question.

So how do you understand spirits, and what's their purpose to you?
What made you believe in them?
what makes them compatible?

laurie Your question is clear to me. You are questioning the proposition that some people only behave well because of constraints their religion, because a god is watching.

I don't think it's a very tenable proposition. I agree with moonstruck but the heavy surveillance is what we rely on rather than extravagant religious rituals to weed out the insincere and untrustworthy

Just forget it. Sigh.

Cote, sorry you didn't understand the question. If you weren't being sarcastic in the post I was referring to, then I'll try to rephrase. If you were being sarcastic, we'll just leave it at that.

I asked what you are talking about because I really have no idea what you were trying to say in that post. You seemed to be accusing me of something but it wasn't even clear what that was.

But watched people are good people, look no further than the Internet and how much trolling goes on under the guise of anonymity. Complaints about increased surveillance by the state are met with 'if your not doing anything wrong you won't mind your details being searched through'. Watched people are good people is also the basis why we don't trust people whose faces are covered, that they must be on some nefarious business because their faces are covered and so they are anonymous.
The omniscient omnipresent omnipotent God has now been replaced in modern secular society by the gazillion cctv cameras on the streets, shops and public buildings, experian and other credit reference agencies to dig into your payment history and the all powerful HMRC to make you pay your tax into the welfare state rather than the church tithe. We actually live in a low trust society (see the increased usage of dashcams in cars?) but the heavy surveillance is what we rely on rather than extravagant religious rituals to weed out the insincere and untrustworthy.

slug - well that's what I was wondering but then I was none the wiser for the "what are you talking about?" response. I'm not very good at this sort of debate. Sorry.

What are you talking about?

You've bought her story and think there are clearly people who are "moral and decent" only because of a god and if you took that god away from them, they'd be awful/'immoral'/'indecent'?

"conversation with a catholic friend where she implied that atheists were selfish and had no morals or principles to guide them, as why does it matter, when you are dead you're dead"

This sort of thing makes me wonder if it would be a bad thing for the world for the influence of religion to diminish. Clearly there are people who are moral and decent only because they think a deity is watching them. How much more awful would people act towards each other if they realize that it is all just a ludicrous story?