Islamaphobia?

What gets atheists through?

Can't speak for anyone else, but for me it's a persistent, nudging voice in my head that says x or y is the right thing to do (or x or y is the wrong thing to do).

Maybe that inner voice (conscience) is what some think of as God?

How is my chance of reproductive success increased by going and chatting with my elderly neighbour?

How is my own survival guaranteed by giving my last pound to a hungry person?

If others are aware of your socially positive behaviour, they're inclined to direct more socially positive behaviour in your direction as they see the greater benefit to themselves. Socially positive behaviour usually increases the chance of survival or reproductive success.

If others are not aware of your behaviour, behaving in ways that you are aware would be socially rewarded alters your self perception, creating signifiers of confidence and internal security that cause others to direct socially positive behaviour towards you.

Love. Compassion. The usual stuff.
Duty is very important to me too, self imposed I suppose but inspired by ethical codes that may be thought of as religious but can be used without faith in a deity or afterlife.

It is like asking - If a person believes all will be forgiven by their deity where is their motivation to be ethical before confessing on their deathbed?

Wow I have no idea what I did to deserve that!

How is my chance of reproductive success increased by going and chatting with my elderly neighbour?

How is my own survival guaranteed by giving my last pound to a hungry person?

What gets atheists through?

The same thing as any animal; Increased likelihood of survival and reproductive success.

And I answered you.

Minimally. And not very satisfactorily. After all, there's plenty of rubbish on the internet.

that's something the religious struggle with as much as those without faith.

I agree that's the hard bit, absolutely. And what I was asking was, what is there to support atheists in that struggle? Religious people have motivations offered by their faith - duty, or imitation of Christ, or even (mistakenly) reward. What gets atheists through?

And I answered you.

Are religious societies any more or less 'moral' than secular ones?

I don't know. There is consistent research that shows that within secularised societies religious people give more to charity and volunteer more than people of no faith. But in any case, my point wasn't that religious people are better than atheists. My question was, what helps atheists when living out their morality gets hard?

niminypiminy

The 'easy' bit is understanding the basis for atheistic (or a-religious) moral behaviour. The hard bit is making yourself do it, but that's something the religious struggle with as much as those without faith. I've been both and know both.

Easy.

Ok I'll remember that when next I am faced with a hungry person and I only have a pound in my purse. Or when I don't want to go and see my elderly neighbour because they're a bit smelly and I'd rather be sitting on my sofa. (Those are two hypothetical examples: I am not claiming I'm better than anyone else - just trying to suggest that if being good was easy then we'd be in a much better state in this world than we currently are.)

You do need a psychopath to sell capitalism. A nice person would not manipulate you into buying what you will never ever need or use.

Cooperation also helps in competition as groups that have better cooperation within themselves makes them better at competing with other groups. but how did we get from small groups of hunter gatherers to large multi functioning socieities working together? alot of that groundwork was laid by religion, increasing trust and cooperative ties between strangers, wayfarers, nomads, bedouins, by the Big God (Gods in the case of Hinduism) overall.

Though capitalism kind of turns that on its head anyway

Capitalism is the failed attempt to harness selfish behaviours for the common good. It has produced incredible social and technological advances, but fails because it exponentially rewards greater levels of anti-social behaviour, fundamentally wrecking the social fabric of the cultures it ostensibly benefits.

I live in a community and have found support for bringing up my children.
There is a very family friendly welcoming church here that has provided support to some friends. However I couldn't stomach the (occasional) anti homosexual preaching. I don't.t feel my children have lost out by this.

What gives them the motivation to act against their own comfort and happiness?

Immortality is only possible through genetics and memetics, which requires the survival of the human species. The survival of the species requires cooperation, which requires at least a fragmentary behavioural code and structure. Compliance with the code and conformity with the structure enhances likelihood of genetic and memetic survival. Extreme compliance (individual sacrifice) has the potential to enormously increase likelihood of genetic or memetic immortality.

Easy.

the test of morality is where it presses on your own comfort and self-interest. And the question is, what support do humanists/secularists/atheists have in those cases?

The same shared human values (e.g. empathy, compassion, cooperation) that are evident across all religious and many non-religious belief systems, stemming from our capacity for rational thought and reflection and underpinned by our biological basis?

Are religious societies any more or less 'moral' than secular ones?

And the last thing an unscrupulous person needs is the cover of religion. I don't get your point on evolution Deb. Many traits may be useful to survival and reproduction and some of them may be "opposites".

I tell my children to cooperate but watch out for users..and those who try to manipulate including via religion.and superstition.

"On the contrary, in such an environment NOT being psychopathic would place you at an enormous disadvantage"

Exactly, it takes very strong social conditioning to make altruism the order of the day rather than the intrinsic survival of the fittest humans would normally incline to. Though capitalism kind of turns that on its head anyway

slugseatlettuce

if everyone was psychopathic and out for themselves, it wouldn't be a beneficial strategy.

On the contrary, in such an environment NOT being psychopathic would place you at an enormous disadvantage.

A sense of the wonder of humanity and all that humanity has achieved. A love of other people. A sense of personal responsibilty for the way the world should be.

And, less admirable, an understanding of quid pro quo.

EnaSharplesHairnet the Communist leaders Stalin, mao, Kim Jong Il, Pol Pot, the Nazi party's Hitler, the secular arab dictators Ghaddafi, Sadaam, Ben Ali, Mubarak, all had entirely all encompassing power over their citizens each building up a cult of personality around themselves that pushed through and justified alot of their tyrannies. I actually see ISIS as more the descendents of Arab Baathism than anything to do with Islam -they are stuffed full to the rafters with Saddams old associates and party members in their leadership and administration. i think the world only started to believe that ISIS didnt take their inspiration from the Quran when reports and footage came through about that Jordanian pilot burned alive last year. Something completely abhorrent in islam but a tactic of the Baath party in Iraq on their opponents during Saddam's time. even with explicit prescriptions and restrictions against it they still found some justifications as with all these other psychopathic behaviour. but everytime i think they have reached the lowest of wickedness and evil, that theres nowhere for them to go, i see something new, today that ISIS's sharia judges issued a fatawa ordering children with Down's Syndrome and other disabilities to be killed. from newborns onwards

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3358840/How-depraved-ISIS-Group-s-Sharia-judges-order-children-s-syndrome-disabilities-killed-chilling-echo-Nazis.html

and so they further drag the name of Islam and the religion of Muhammad into the mud because most people will read 'Sharia Judge rules disabled kids to be killed' and automatically accept that whereas its so far out of what Islam teaches. Again however, euthanasia used to be carried out in Saddam's Iraq on too-sick infants and children. But they stamp it with Sharia and fatwa and make a mockery and bastardisation of both.

Well, it does matter rather. I am two of those things but not the 3rd. There are Christian secularists. For two examples.

Ok fine. What support then can atheists rely on to help them live out their morality when it conflicts with their own interests? What gives them the motivation to act against their own comfort and happiness?

I think evolution would prove that being altruistic is not always best for the development of society. Yes, it would help glue society together but when it comes down to management it would crumble. Psychopaths seem to succeed far better than your normal ability person on the spectrum. It's not just humans that show this kind of behaviour. Territorial animals that mange to protect their young and the areas where they live I would assume is biased on who is the fittest both mentality and bodily. Apes as best example.

Not all good deeds are done for good motives. "Give with and hand and take with another " . "There is nothing for free ". It's not just talking about money but how society works. We, as a society know it. In my opinion there maybe very few people who do good deeds for the sake of it and not because they are just nice.

One of the things to always keep in mind is all that "no good deed ever goes unpunished". It seems that society can be untrusting when someone is too nice. We always ask why. One big story Which circulated the net and news was of the man who raised the wages of his workers and cut his to creat an equilibrium of fair wages. This backfired on him as a result. Some of the reason which were given by business owners taking their businesses away from him was because they thought he was not shrewd and ruthless enough to mange a business. They thought of it as being his luck of judgment.

www.forbes.com/sites/victorlipman/2013/04/25/the-disturbing-link-between-psychopathy-and-leadership/

www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/07/the-startling-accuracy-of-referring-to-politicians-as-psychopaths/260517/