Islamaphobia?

I think there is definitely a strand of atheism that in reality is very misogynist, namely the evolutionary psychologists. Some of the sexist shit they come out: men need to shag as many young fertile women as they can, women are the gatekeepers of sex, and everything revolving around men hunting. Even the messed up interpretation of survival of the fittest as a macho dog eat dog is used to justify all kinds of crap.

And I think therein lies the answer. Man can look to any belief system, be it atheism, evolution or a supernatural being to find a justification for all kinds of vile behaviour. Religion is man made and therefore is as good or as bad as the men who make it and interpret it.

Perhaps even worse because he would feel he had the certainties of his faith behind him, and would never be expected to challenge his thinking on an intellectual level.

You see, I kind of feel with Dawkins this is putting the ideological cart before the psychological horse. He is of the personality type which sees the world in absolute certainties - and atheism is simply the ideology he has picked to pin his love of certainty on. He is, in this respect, no different from a doctrinaire marxist, or a fundamentalist religious believer, or an extreme nationalist. My sense is that it is the tendency towards certainty, coupled with a fundamental failure in empathy which makes it possible for such people to "other" entire sections of humanity (whether women, other races/nationalities, people with other political outlooks) which makes these people so terrifying, not the particular ideology they rather randomly seize upon to provide a spurious justification for their "righteous" hatred. (Though I will happily accept that the expression of their dislike for other sections of society comes in different degrees of intensity, and at least Dawkins only says nasty things, rather than actually doing evil things).

Vestalvirgin, the Quakers accept atheists!

Mind you, sometimes I wish I was Jewish- our dear friends are and the rituals are wonderful....

So, you would be atheist Jewish, then? (I believe that's possible. My family are agnostic Christians - none of us are really convinced that the Christian god exists, but we do have a Christmas tree and celebrate Easter and all that.)

There is a school of thought that promotes pagan religion as a way of psychological health care - like, observing rituals that are tied to nature, etc. gives you a structure and a community and ultimately, the pagan deities are more of a personification of the forces of nature.

So, I would not feel like I failed if a child of mine decided to join a religion. You can be capable of critical thinking and still feel the need to believe in a higher being.
That is, if it was a sensible religion. (I would be actually proud if a child of mine became a Quaker. While I don't believe in the existence OR non-existence of any god, I hold a great deal of respect for Quakers. They may or may not be wrong about the existence of a creator god, but to me, what a person does matters more than what they say they believe, and a religious group that has historically fought against slavery and for women's rights must be right about something.)

Why should any random atheist care, or even know, what Richard Dawkins thinks? It is not like being a Catholic; he isn't Christ or the pope.

And especially so on this thread, where the OP has been largely about Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Why when women hold any particular opinion on anything, do we get discredited by people bringing up, and expecting us to defend, the behaviour of some man?

The thing about being an atheist is that it really shouldn't have any expectations attached. All being an atheist is, is believing in one less God than Christians do. That's it. Nothing more.

Atheists can be kind, cruel, thoughtful, stupid, liberal, socialist, conservative, facist anything. The only thing atheists have in common is not believing in God. I am an atheist and I probably agree with Justin Welby more often than I agree with Richard Dawkins (well, I did til the whole Lord's Prayer in cinemas thing)

I think there can be a concerning element when a person who has no religious background joins a religion. I think they can be very vulnerable to cult elements of it in a way that people who've been brought up in religions are often not.

Atheists here, I don't mind what the dc do as long as it's kind/legal etc.

Adult dss was Christianed last year. We do think it's odd (and that he's not very bright-sorry) but no we don't "mind"

Perhaps even worse because he would feel he had the certainties of his faith behind him, and would never be expected to challenge his thinking on an intellectual level.

And that is the difference. Unpleasant on a personal level, not bolstered up by a structured religion.

To be honest I've never had to deal with evangelical atheists or evangelical religious people.

I still don't see what purpose is achieved if you are considering the ways in which enforced and religiously sanctioned mores oppress women to make the point but yeah some atheists are unpleasant too.

The latter is completely irrelevant in comparison to a religion which seeks to make contraception and abortion unavailable not only for its own members but for non members.

bertrand agreed, and the food /food based traditions are awesome

So as atheist parents would you be happy for your child to join a religion?

Honestly? No, I would feel I had failed in their scientific education if they believed in something for which there was zero evidence. I know there are smart, educated people who are also religious - some of my friends and family fall into that category- but I just can't reconcile how.

Mind you, sometimes I wish I was Jewish- our dear friends are and the rituals are wonderful......

"So as atheist parents would you be happy for your child to join a religion?"

Actually, no I wouldn't. I would feel that I had not encouraged their critical thinking enough. But it would of course be their choice.

I suspect very few theists would be happy if their children became atheists.i am not sure what the point of the question is.

Richard Dawkins is in my opinion an unpleasant vainglorious misogynist who retweets praise. He is also an atheist. These two facts have nothing to do with each other. He would be an unpleasant etc if he was a man of faith too. Perhaps even worse because he would feel he had the certainties of his faith behind him, and would never be expected to challenge his thinking on an intellectual level..

So as atheist parents would you be happy for your child to join a religion?

I'm not actually atheist, I'm agnostic, and some of my best friends are religous, so ... no, I would not see a problem with that per se.

If a child of mine wanted to become Christian because that "love thy neighbour" stuff sounds nice, and it is helpful to have something to believein, then that'd be okay.

There are people who treat atheism as a sort of religion and try to convert others to it. I consider that creepy.

@Plays: I assume most people who don't believe in any god just don't mention it. I certainly don't. As long as no one gets on my nerves with "But you must do X because otherwise you will burn in hell", there is no reason to mention that I don't believe in hell. And sometimes I'll just say "Okay, then I will burn in hell, because I won't let myself be blackmailed by any god".
All in all, the question of whether there is a creator god or not is irrelevant to me.

mimishimmi - I am sorry for what you went through. I hope that white boy's crimes against you were not racist as well as mysogynist?

I think the blame Islam as whole is misplaced. Blaming a strand like Wahhabism might be more accurate.

Afraid I have to agree that, in my vast experience, the majority of atheists I've met are evangelical about it. They might not use their lack of religious belief to justify their shitty thinking, but it's still apparent, with an extra soupcon of "if you believe anything other than atheism, you're stupid" thrown in.

Evangelism by definition being about bringing others to your belief system, shaming people into it looks pretty evangelical to anyone with an eye for the ridiculous.

People of all religions and none kill every day.

Hermione I fear you may be right. :(

When I was eight, I was molested by a white boy in his late teens (about 3 times). My parents took it to the police and nothing was done. Why? It transpired to my family that his father indulged in the same and was 'protected'. They moved from place to place whenever their reputation became known. It has a lot to do with my complete lack of trust in authority and confidence issues.

The West has a huge issue with the abuse of vulnerable minors. The GWOT has only strengthened the hand of that ilk and quite frankly it's downright scary. I've never felt threatened by Muslim men (although I'm sure they have their share of thugs) - they won't even look at me.

maria I fear by this point, misogynistic and homophobic culture and Islam are so culturally entwined that they will not be unpicked for many centuries - look how long it's has taken Christianity to approach anything like equality, and that is only in pockets and very "liberal" churches.

"Atheist" means you don't believe in god/gods. So if you don't believe, you are an atheist.

Yes, Richard Dawkins has an unapologetic agenda to promote atheism, but it's not comparable with religion - his agenda is fact and evidence based which is the antithesis of belief.

And yes, Dawkins has said some twattish things. I'd still prefer to live in a world run by people with his views than the Catholic Church or Islam. He's never advocated harm or restricted freedom or rights, it's just from his perspective of rich, white, male privilege that he just doesn't "get it" sometimes.

Islam is not the problem. The problem is that the people who are brought up in those countries where Islam is widely practised are also brought up in a culture which considers women to be below men in the pecking order. That culture also holds a very strong hatred towards the West. The countries which practice Islam are also the countries where people are not able to access the best education, the 'widest' education; their education is very much by rote, and does not necessarily encourage free thought. A better education system might encourage a less blinkered view of world affairs, and that in turn might then afford them the educational means and mental agility by which to question their religion, and/or the violence of some of their countrymen.

We are also mistaking Islam for a race. You cannot 'look' Muslim. Just as you cannot 'look' Buddhist, or 'look' Christian.

People are using Islam as an excuse for undertaking vile acts of murder and torture against other human beings, who for one reason or another, they hate. But they are using Islam as an excuse to make their revolting little deeds seem noble. Some of them are mentally ill, of course, and others are just attracted by the chance to do a bit of killing, literally.

However, most people living in (or trying to escape) those countries are moderate, kind, ordinary people. Just like the people in Europe, and the people in the United States, or in Australia or anywhere else for that matter.

Elendon, can you explain why almond's reply is patriarchal?