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Original poster

Everyday sexism - how not to be the lech at the office party

42 replies

BubsandMoo · 06/12/2015 09:44

Just read this

www.independent.co.uk/voices/everday-sexism-how-not-to-be-the-lech-at-the-office-party-a6761831.html

It's really annoyed me. The author (who is male, although going by initials doesn't make that clear) seems to either have spectacularly misunderstood the concept of everyday sexism or just wilfully misappropriated it. The point isn't that "giving a women a compliment on her appearance these days is a minefield for men.....we live in an age where the line between innocent compliment and creepy lechery can become hopelessly blurred" - which he seems to blame either on women being confusing or some kind of theoretical other type of men, not nice old chaps like his Dad who were entirely innocent and clueless in their objectification. The bloody point of everyday sexism is that men feel entitled to go around making uninvited comments on women's appearance in the first place, whatever those comments are whether the conscious intention behind them is to get in the woman's pants or not.

The tone and vocabulary is telling - referring to other women at the party "smirking" at him floundering over telling a woman what she looked like- and use of the word "uxorious" - unnecessary to use such obscure language in a newspaper, IMO, however high-brow, it just smacks of the author trying to prove he's more intelligent than his readers - but the word itself is misogynistic, implying that a man is wrong to be fond of his wife. To sum up, for all his grandiloquence (see, I can use big words too) he comes across as either exceptionally dim, so entrenched in his everyday sexism that he cannot even see it, or horribly calculating in his misogyny, masquerading behind the 'you can't say anything these days' anti-PC banner.

Feel a bit less annoyed after that venting! Am I way off the mark here or does his get anyone else's goat?

OP posts:
MrNoseybonk · 08/12/2015 08:55

Why can't they talk about books or the weather or art or news.

Of course they can (well some of them) and do, and that places the ball in the woman's court.
Unless you have that magical "click", which does happen, when both people "know", someone has to let the other know that they are attracted to them, somehow.

PassiveAgressiveQueen · 08/12/2015 06:37

Why can't they talk about books or the weather or art or news.

Because many people can't, their topics of conversation are football, how drunk fred got and who he puked on/ beat up etc.

After my exams when i was 16 i spent the summer holidays hanging with this group it was great, it was mindless but they couldn't have had those conversations if their life depended on it.

MrsTerryPratchett · 08/12/2015 04:56

Just for the idiots... How DH 'hit on me'. I was in a bar and being 'complimented' by a drunk, sexist arsehole who refused to stop touching me. I may have threatened to break his fingers DH's mate said, "my mate's a back belt. Just sit near him if you want to get rid of him" I saw gorgeous DH earlier so sat next to him "this seat taken?". DH and I talked about books, our families (from the same place), the idiot and life. There is laughter. We are both by this point pretty sure the other person is attracted. No comments about appearance either way.

Why is this hard? Why are men so married to the idea that they have to comment on women's appearance? Why can't they talk about books or the weather or art or news. Then body language and so on will give you a fairly good idea if your advances are being considered favorably.

The thing about commenting on appearance that I really hate is there is no good outcome...

Imagine this... "Nice arse" I either hate the person commenting in which case I'm probably a little threatened and weirded out. Or, I like the person in which case I either agree (vain bitch) or disagree (false modesty or insecurity). Yuck.

abbieanders · 07/12/2015 12:55

It infuriates me that so many men relate to feminism as all very well in a way, but since it's not about getting men sex, you know...

MrNoseybonk · 07/12/2015 12:33

Is it sexist to hit on a woman you don't know by reducing her to a sex object by commenting on how physically attractive you find her?

That's not what I said though.

TychosNose · 07/12/2015 11:55

Is it sexist to hit on a woman you don't know by reducing her to a sex object by commenting on how physically attractive you find her?

Yes MrNoseybonk , it is sexist.

Hth

MrNoseybonk · 07/12/2015 11:49

*If they want to hit on you, they definitely shouldn't be assuming that their advances will be welcome.

That's not a difficult concept either.*

No, they shouldn't assume it will be welcome but are they sexist to try?
A lot of people seem to take an approach by someone as the worst sexist crime.

abbieanders · 07/12/2015 11:44

If you can't figure out how to hit on someone, I mean.

abbieanders · 07/12/2015 11:43

Who really cares?

AuntieStella · 07/12/2015 11:43

If they want to hit on you, they definitely shouldn't be assuming that their advances will be welcome.

That's not a difficult concept either.

MrNoseybonk · 07/12/2015 11:31

*If a random person who I didn't know came up to me and said the same, they'd almost certainly be trying to hit on me.

It would make me uncomfortable because it is basically telling you that they've been watching you and judging your appearance.*

What if they are trying to hit on you?
How is a man (or a woman) supposed to indicate to someone that they are attracted to them and are interested in inquiring if the attraction is mutual and if future interaction could be a possibility, without some kind of approach and initial exchange from a stranger who has been watching and judging you?

cigarsofthepharaoh · 07/12/2015 08:14

It's the intention that makes the difference. I would he totally fine if I went to an office party, say, and any of my male colleagues said "oh, you look lovely, your hair/dress/make up looks amazing". It would be polite chit chat rather than any attempt to come on to me. If a random person who I didn't know came up to me and said the same, they'd almost certainly be trying to hit on me.

It would make me uncomfortable because it is basically telling you that they've been watching you and judging your appearance. You can compliment the women you know because you'll have been looking at them anyway before saying hi! Obviously, even if you know them, too many compliments is going to come across as reducing them to their looks and objectifying them.

It really isn't difficult, I don't understand how men find these simple concepts too hard.

AuntieStella · 07/12/2015 07:39

If it's in the same tone (and the same extent) as "I like your tie" or "are those new trousers? I like them" to a male colleague, then you're unikely to have difficulties.

If you don't compliment everyone on their appearance (regardless of sex), then it may well come across badly, as it's then not about clothing choices, but women's appaearance choices only.

And no, you should have no expectation whatsoever that an opinion of someone's appearance will be universally welcome.

And it's not a minefield. It's a simple case of generally not doing it unless you have reason to believe it will be welcome. Dropping the assumption that it will always be welcome is not complicated.

Original poster
BubsandMoo · 07/12/2015 07:28

The difference is complimenting the clothing (I like your boots) as you would if anyone was wearing it vs commenting on an individual's wppappearance (you look X). The former is fine. The latter is uninvitingly informing someone whether you find their appearance visually pleasing (/sexually appealing) or not, it happens to women in situations where it does not happen to men, hence, sexist.

OP posts:
LassWiTheDelicateAir · 07/12/2015 01:26

Well I would say absolutely not sexist. If someone is wearing a new dress or suit at work I think it's nice , even polite to mention it. I'd be pleased. At social occasions , of course it's fine.

On a previous thread about compliments someone posted that if a woman she didn't know walked up to her on the street and stopped her to tell her she had a nice dress, she'd think she was very peculiar and that it has never happened. Which I found vaguely amusing as it had actually happened to me the very day I read it and has happened many times over the years.

PassiveAgressiveQueen · 06/12/2015 23:14

So when i compliment people on their dress or skirt for example am i being sexist? Simple "i like your dress" style comments?

AuntieStella · 06/12/2015 10:07

I thought 'uxurious' meant a conspicuous and pointed display of sentiment for the spouse. Not a normal relationship.

But, yes, he's missed the point that there is no reason whatsoever for someone to believe that personal comments will be welcomed by anyone else. And if you make them, it's perfectly OK for them to be politely rebuffed. If you are capable of taking the message, then all that will be accomplished without the single ruffling of a social feather.