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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Everyday sexism - how not to be the lech at the office party

42 replies

BubsandMoo · 06/12/2015 09:44

Just read this

www.independent.co.uk/voices/everday-sexism-how-not-to-be-the-lech-at-the-office-party-a6761831.html

It's really annoyed me. The author (who is male, although going by initials doesn't make that clear) seems to either have spectacularly misunderstood the concept of everyday sexism or just wilfully misappropriated it. The point isn't that "giving a women a compliment on her appearance these days is a minefield for men.....we live in an age where the line between innocent compliment and creepy lechery can become hopelessly blurred" - which he seems to blame either on women being confusing or some kind of theoretical other type of men, not nice old chaps like his Dad who were entirely innocent and clueless in their objectification. The bloody point of everyday sexism is that men feel entitled to go around making uninvited comments on women's appearance in the first place, whatever those comments are whether the conscious intention behind them is to get in the woman's pants or not.

The tone and vocabulary is telling - referring to other women at the party "smirking" at him floundering over telling a woman what she looked like- and use of the word "uxorious" - unnecessary to use such obscure language in a newspaper, IMO, however high-brow, it just smacks of the author trying to prove he's more intelligent than his readers - but the word itself is misogynistic, implying that a man is wrong to be fond of his wife. To sum up, for all his grandiloquence (see, I can use big words too) he comes across as either exceptionally dim, so entrenched in his everyday sexism that he cannot even see it, or horribly calculating in his misogyny, masquerading behind the 'you can't say anything these days' anti-PC banner.

Feel a bit less annoyed after that venting! Am I way off the mark here or does his get anyone else's goat?

OP posts:

MrNoseybonk · 10/12/2015 13:10

PlaysWell maybe I misunderstood you then. If so, sorry.

QuiteIrregular · 10/12/2015 12:53

Totally agree with the OP - the whole tone seems to be "how to do the things a lech does and get what a lech gets out of it all...without anyone calling you a lech". This is the same sort of thing that makes me cringe at some writers lke Dr Nerdlove with their air of "Treat women like people. That's a great way to get sex."

PlaysWellWithOthers · 10/12/2015 12:23

I didn't say that men don't do that, Nosey, old chap. I said that I believe you when you say they do.

I'm slightly perplexed how you got that I don't believe you when I stated, really clearly that I do, but no doubt it makes you happy to think that.

MrNoseybonk · 10/12/2015 11:56

Oh yes sure.
Boys are also conditioned that they won't get the girl if they don't make the move.
This is entrenched in films, tv, the internet and everywhere else in popular culture.
This doesn't necessarily mean that have to comment on women's appearance but I think it feeds into it. And it's certainly no excuse to be sleazy.

cailindana · 10/12/2015 11:44

I don't get the impression that you are trying to tell anyone how it is.

My experience is that women don't approach men on the street for two reasons: they've not been brought up to see men as objects that invite comment; and they fear a man will attack them and they will be blamed for it because they 'started' it (by commenting).

Given those conditions, can you see how commenting is mixed up with an inequality of power?

MrNoseybonk · 10/12/2015 11:40

*Nosey, you said 'Doing it randomly in the street or whatever I wouldn't think women ever approach random men and do this.'

They were your words. I simply asked why you think that's the situation. Do you feel I've misinterpreted you?*

No you haven't.
OK, I'll ignore PlaysWell who seems to think I said men don't do that!

I don't think anyone should approach random people in the street and make comments on their appearance.
I think men do it (see PlaysWell!) for a few reasons, mainly entitlement but other reasons include that they see other men doing this and having "success".
As to why women don't do it, probably also many reasons. Maybe women are more respectful of people in general but I'm sure there are plenty that aren't. Fear would be a reason for many. Also, no real reason. When so many men are making these approaches there's perhaps not much need.

These are my thoughts and my answers to your questions. I'm really not trying to tell anyone how it is.

cailindana · 10/12/2015 11:28

Nosey, you said 'Doing it randomly in the street or whatever I wouldn't think women ever approach random men and do this.'

They were your words. I simply asked why you think that's the situation. Do you feel I've misinterpreted you?

PlaysWellWithOthers · 10/12/2015 11:28

Well people are reading my comments and replying to things I haven't said so I'm going to leave this discussion.

No, we're really not. We believe you. We absolutely believe you.

MrNoseybonk · 10/12/2015 11:24

Why do you think that women don't ever approach men on the street to comment on them Nosey?

Well people are reading my comments and replying to things I haven't said so I'm going to leave this discussion.

cailindana · 10/12/2015 11:23

I don't know if men understand how watched women feel.

cailindana · 10/12/2015 11:22

IMO, and I don't know if I'm unusual in this, personal comments are really rude. I don't mind 'that's a lovely dress,' but things like 'you look sexy' or 'those boots really do it for me,' just make my skin crawl. Thankfully I've very rarely had that kind of comment.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 10/12/2015 11:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GreenTomatoJam · 10/12/2015 11:16

I'm thinking back to my younger days when I spent a lot of time in pubs, and I can't think that I ever approached someone with a compliment on their appearance - it was generally small talk level stuff - and in general, yes, actually I could tell without trying very hard at all if attraction was mutual - a smile and a look go much further than words.

In fact, if someone approached me with a compliment it generally put me on my guard a touch.

PlaysWellWithOthers · 10/12/2015 11:07

Oh come on Buffy... we have a man here telling us that men don't need to behave like that. Maybe we should believe him? Testicles of objectivity and all that.

Btw Buffy, great hair... wanna be my mate?

cailindana · 10/12/2015 11:05

Why do you think that women don't ever approach men on the street to comment on them Nosey?

VestalVirgin · 10/12/2015 11:05

But Buffy, men have no imagination (that's why they need porn). And they always see pictures of women as pleasingly shaped objects, so how can they do better?

Maybe we should go one step further. Maybe we should acknowledge that men are not entitled to female sex partners, and that, if they feel unable to make their attraction known in a civilised way, heterosexuality is just not for them.

So the whole "But hoooow will men get sex?" argument is invalid. There is no need for men to get sex.

MrNoseybonk · 10/12/2015 11:04

I'm not saying this doesn't happen, as it's clearly your experience, but I have never ever made a 'come on' to a man by commenting on their appearance and I've never seen or heard of any of my female friends doing so either.

To be honest I had the pub/social scene in mind. Doing it randomly in the street or whatever I wouldn't think women ever approach random men and do this.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 10/12/2015 10:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

cailindana · 10/12/2015 10:48

'I'm just thinking, it's very normal and common for females to approach a male they find attractive and make a "come on" which is a comment or compliment on their appearance.'

MrNoseybonk · 10/12/2015 10:30

all you need to do to show you're attracted to a woman is point out that she has a nice rack

PlaysWellWithOthers · 10/12/2015 10:17

I'll have to go back to my Psychology professor and tell him to find a new thing to research then. Poor thing, all those years and all that money wasted looking at how men and women interact when we have empirical evidence that all you need to do to show you're attracted to a woman is point out that she has a nice rack.

And feminist thought men might have evolved from the cartoonish days of cave men thunking the woman they want over the head with a club and dragging her back to his cave. Seems they have, but not by much!

MrNoseybonk · 10/12/2015 10:17

Any sensible person can tell the difference between a comment on appearance, which is still a "come on" and a sleazy comment.

I think everyone on this thread is thinking of this from a men making comments to women viewpoint, which is fair enough. I'm just thinking, it's very normal and common for females to approach a male they find attractive and make a "come on" which is a comment or compliment on their appearance. Sleaziness is sleaziness, it's not the comment which is inherently bad.

Are you saying Noseybonk that the one and only way you have of letting someone know you're attracted to them is to comment on their appearance? Really? Does that mean that attraction, for you, centres entirely around appearance and has nothing to do with how engaging a person is, or their laugh, or how much you like their company?

That's a bit of a leap from what I said. Of course not, on all counts. It's one of the ways that men and women can be attracted to each other and serve as a means to approaching them.

cailindana · 10/12/2015 10:09

'Unless you have that magical "click", which does happen, when both people "know", someone has to let the other know that they are attracted to them, somehow.'

The premise of that whole article is utterly misogynistic. He starts from the assumption that ogling women is just one of life's pleasures and that it's somehow 'normal' and 'natural' to goggle at someone who fits some template of attractiveness. Some people do fit that template but in fact it's no more acceptable to stare at them and comment on them than it is to stare at and comment on someone who's different for other reasons such as skin colour or disability. There seems to be an assumption that because attractiveness is 'positive' (as opposed to disability which is 'negative') then all comments are welcome and that person has to put up with it - I mean, she can't expect to look that good and get away with it, can she?

VestalVirgin · 10/12/2015 00:26

Unless you have that magical "click", which does happen, when both people "know", someone has to let the other know that they are attracted to them, somehow.

You can do so by telling the person you'd like to meet them again. No need for sleazy comments.

reni2 · 10/12/2015 00:02

It did get my goat. It reminded me of a work Christmas party. Talked to a very senior guy (I was very young) and he blatantly talked to my tits. To the point of first addressing the right tit, then the left. He talked about work to each of my tits, his eyes so clearly moving it was almost funny. He then proceeded to say "I like your.... top." I told him that's a bit uncomfortable. Cue outraged "can't compliment girls (!) these days"

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