How a man becomes a woman. Daily Mail article.

This person bled for two months after the surgery? That's nowhere near a lifetime's periods, FFS! Plenty of women bleed for a week every month, some for even longer than a week, over 40 years or so. Two months of bleeding equates to about eight months worth of periods. Lifetime, my arse.

I did just read an article by a transwoman about the "vagina" creation surgery. He explained to the reader that after the surgery, it's like "basically amounts to your entire lifetime’s worth of periods condensed into a two month period of recovery. Bloody, hormonal, moody, painful recovery."

YOU DON'T HAVE AN ENTIRE LIFETIME'S WORTH OF PERIODS. YOU DON'T KNOW BLOODY HORMONAL MOODY.

Literally. This surgery is apparently worse than periods. We women don't know how good we've got it apparently.

Ffs.

A woman's gender isn't handed to her on a plate. She has to fight against it her whole life to avoid being forced into femininity.

Girls get called princess because that's all they are supposed to be: a marriageable, pretty object to be passed around to make men happy, maybe be a prop for male power.

Being bought a bra isn't a magical experience for most girls. You get bullied for developing boobs too fast (slut), too slow (flat-chested, not worth a second glance), for your nipples showing through your school shirt (dirty ho) or even for having your new bra straps showing.

Who the fuck gets an Easter dress nowadays, boy or girl?!

A Barbie is a blonde, big boobed, high heeled clothes horse. Not exactly a role model.

I'm not sure any woman takes her womanhood for granted. My womanhood is having been raped multiple times, having debilitating periods, watching my mother and friends go through horrific miscarriages, being frequently harassed by men from the age of 12 onwards... I've never taken that for granted.

Women have been fighting for centuries. We have made so much progress. It is never done. In fact, it is being taken away by you!

A trans woman isn't a real woman. All those experiences that you've fought for are what makes her a woman. All those injustices and constant reminders of our proper subordinate position are what makes us women. And our vaginas obviously.

We aren't twice the women you are. You aren't women. You are appropriating our sex and our oppression.

Another person who has no idea what being a woman is like.

Stupid guy got to be a human being instead of a fucktoy, got privilege handed on a silver platter and has the fucking gall to complain about his dad not calling him "princess" ... my dad never did that to me, and I am very glad he didn't.

And also, I didn't get a bra when I was thirteen, either. Because I am flat chested enough to not need one. Bras are not something magically wonderful only girls get to have, they are a device some women need to avoid back pain, and most women are forced to wear because men don't like to see saggy breasts.

Next he'll complain he never woke up in a puddle of blood. (Which is one of those wonderfully feminine experiences I got to have. Yay!)

Asshole.

Why didn't my images attach?! Anyway...

Stumbled across this on Tumblr and had to share it.

I fear that before long doctors forms will have gender on them, and then a secret boxes for the doc to fill in: 'needs cervical smear', 'needs prostrate check' and this will have to be used for any logic that used to run off the sex option.

I am getting very angry, as i believe we are right, but i also believe we will lose.

Yes, this thread does make uncomfortable reading. And that's a very good thing. It doesn't avoid the issue or get tied up with pointless semantics.

I also like reading threads like this because it allows me to try and figure out my own thoughts on the subject. I always considered myself totally liberal and believe people should be able to do what they want if it makes them happy but actually this; People are challenging the idea that a surgically created hole can be described as a 'fully functioning vagina' based on whether its possible to put penis in it has summed up why I'm uncomfortable about the issue. Thank you.

Sweetheart, you have no fucking idea what it is to be a woman

Exactly

I agree with all of that, VagueIdeas. She was in a difficult situation and she shouldn't have been and I absolutely agree she should have been able to call herself 'Ms' if she wanted to, and dress how she liked and be accepted as she desired herself to be. But her struggle had nothing to do with my own personal journey, having created life, and carried life and lost life, and sat there 40 mins after my clock-off time worrying about soaking through the maternity pad and just wanting to go home, curl up in a ball and cry for my dead baby. She would never experience that.

Joan I never used the word vile.
I was quoting a previous poster who had described it as "vile".

I don't promote youngsters or teenagers, or those with ASD going down the transgender route. I believe they are allowed to start this journey too easily.
But I am also saddened that they are so uncomfortable in their own body that they even want to. They seem confused, possibly having mental health issues. And I find it saddening.

I'm not NOT engaging Joan, it's just I think I feel differently, to a lot of the posters.

'Sweetheart, you have no fucking idea what it is to be a woman'

That is absolutely how I see it too, cruikshank.

I have nothing against transwomen, truly. They should be free to live the life they want to live, using the name they want to use, wearing the clothes they want to wear. But they will always be men performing femininity. How else can you describe it?

I love reading threads like this - it feels like an education to me and also like coming home in that you brilliant women articulate so many of the misgivings I have around this kind of issue.

I can actually pinpoint the moment when I started to really question the whole trans argument - it was a long time ago, when I was working in a lowly admin role for a health authority. It was close to clocking-off time, and I got kept on the phone for 40 minutes after I was due to finish by a trans woman asking me if I knew of any drs in the area who were trans-friendly. We didn't keep info like that, but she wasn't having any of it, and I got the whole spiel of her life, her struggle etc. Which, ok, is fair enough on one level, but I had recently had a miscarriage and was still bleeding and (obviously) grieving my loss, plus I honestly wasn't paid enough to be working after hours like that, particularly given that nothing I could say would help her anyway. I do remember starting to think, some way through, 'Sweetheart, you have no fucking idea what it is to be a woman'. I mean, her experience, though difficult, bore no resemblance to mine whatsoever.

I've said this on another thread today, but I had a bit of an epiphany this week when I read something that said gender dysphoria is the only form of dysphoria treated with (mutilating) surgery. Any other type of dysphoria is treated as a mental health issue (hate your legs and want to have them amputated? Sorry, nope) but gender dysphoria isn't. I do wonder why.

He wanted to make the hole bigger so his wee would come out faster. It worked

This ... sounds like authentic toddler logic. He's lucky he wasn't diagnosed with trans. (I presume he was not, as you didn't write "my wife" ;))

I remember being ecstatic to find my 'penis' age around 4. Was my clitoris, I thought it would 'grow in'.

Heh. That's what happens if one doesn't tell little girls that they have external sexual organs, too.

My husband cut his penis with a knife, when he was a lad, as it happens.

He wanted to make the hole bigger so his wee would come out faster. It worked

'I always have loads of questions, if someone was born with with no sexual organs but identified/felt they were female, would you except them as being female or do they actually have to have the vagina and ovaries'

Who is this referring to?

I have never heard of anyone being born with no sexual organs. Intersex people have sexual organs.

This thread is a bit disturbing for many reasons and from many perspectives.

I remember being ecstatic to find my 'penis' age around 4. Was my clitoris, I thought it would 'grow in'.

I still remember my Mum laughing to herself when I told her.

So where are the medical stories about children who actually succeed in this endeavor? Where are the parents who got there too late? Can you think of any other self-mutilation or self-harm issue in which parents literally always find their child in just the nick of time?

Good point. Is this story so prevalent?

I believed that this sort of thing happen occasionally because toddlers tend to do stupid things.
However, if lots and lots of parents tell the same story, and no child actually succeeded, then yes, I'd doubt the truthfulness.

There probably are a few boys who did manage to injure or cut off their penis and/or foreskin as a part of normal toddler "Let's see if I can do this!" stupidity and had to be brought to the hospital to have it sewed back on, and whose parents never tell anyone because it is way too embarrassing.