"Intercourse/PIV is always rape, plain and simple."

@Free: Is that your idea on how to achieve Garlick's utopia? If so, how do you propose we fix rape?

@Shortcut: Wow. I sometimes feel like a lazy, egoistic asshole, but I must say, I am also quite glad that I have always had the hedonistic attitude of "If it feels good, do it. If it is in any way unpleasant, don't do it. If it has a potential to have unpleasant consequences, weigh the positive against the negatives, and only do it is it is worth it." Prevented me from starting to smoke, amongst other things.

No, I persevered!

Went on for 20 odd years, with multiple partners. Couple of times i had infections track back to my kidneys

Often got thrush from the resultant antibiotics; which then gave me cystitis...Spent most of my 20s and 30s in that cycle. Had lots of investigations, xrayz etc...interstitial

Having kids 90% resolved the problem for me

Bonkers, now i think of it

I'm not sure how this could be achieved but it would be a good thing if:

a) older women like Garlick could talk frankly to teenage and young men about real sex that women enjoy;

b) younger women could be given confidence/courage to talk to their young male partners about what they want and don't want.

I say this because if women don't do this then young men will tend to form ideas from but their mates and the internet.

@Passive: Oh, poor you, that sucks!

Though you must have strange anatomy. My lady parts are not nearly as sensitive.

Another one who suffers UTIs often as a result of PIV.I know my mum did too. So I always thought that was normal

And you still didn't decide it was not worth it?

Sometimes I feel I might be asexual (or demisexual, or whatever), if I look at the things other people are willing to go through for the sake of sex.
I mean, sex feels nice, but does it feel good enough to make up for a week of painful UTI?

Okay, coming from someone who eats chocolate daily and has, apparently, subconsciously decided that that is worth all potentially painful dentist treatments in the future, not to mention diabetes, etc, that may seem a bit bigoted, but ... I have not yet had something more painful than my wisdom teeth removed (which wasn't even caused by chocolate), and I think a UTI that happens immediately after sex is somewhat ... closer to home, so to speak.

slugseatlettuce I think we ended up in a patriarchy because we were outnumbered, due to the childbirth issue. If you think outside the box, it becomes clear that monarchy, and thus a line of succession, is not necessary. Also, if things are decided by a council of elders, then women are more reliable, as women who are old enough to be wise are past menopause, and live rather longer than men.

Or, another theory: We all ended up in a patriarchy because patriarchies produce more children per woman than societies wherein it is women's choice to become pregnant or not. Patriarchies thus conquer other countries to make place for their expanding population, and therefore have over the time killed off all matriarchies, that were less overpopulated and thus less warlike, and therefore had no weapons or army.

Pfft, it's okay. I live you too

Agree with you about everything you posted. It's worrying.

No, really not normal :( Assuming you've gone over the hygiene & positional considerations and tried going for a pee beforehand - you might be physically mismatched or basically cut out for alternative sex.
I'm sorry you've been suffering ... and your mum and previous posters.

Another one who suffers UTIs often as a result of PIV.

I know my mum did too. So I always thought that was normal

Most women are not hurt during consensual sex, however and plenty are quite keen on it and obviously in evolutionary terms it's pretty easy to understand what that's the way we do it as it leads to more babies than if he stuck it in your ear and if you and he didn't orgasm or enjoy it we'd have died out.

However I agree with freew that plenty of men and women do get it right in the West at least and discuss things and explain what they want and what they want to give. There is much to be hopeful about.

There is a huge amount of variety of sexual information out there on the internet which is not just PIV sex so you could argue men and women these days are more likely to go in for the variety than just the "traditional" as it were. There are also lots of ways to have sexual relationships with penetration if you don't want that although everyone should make these things clear before they get deeply into a relationship with anyone otherwise it's unfair.

look, sex is not painful

Well thats me told

PIV sex can be painful for a variety of reasons

Yes, Grimble!

Sounds nice. How do you propose to bring this about?

My 60-year-old, second-generation self thinks it should be enough to fill young women and men with joyous and accurate information, usher them forth to experiment - enthusiastically & respectfully! - and instruct them not to settle for anything less than what makes them feel fabulous.

That self did a fine job on herself, but badly underestimated the oncoming backlash. Rapey porn everywhere you look, "powerful women" being lauded for art that makes women into stereotypical sex objects, and regressive 'morals' leading to the sex ed described upthread.

But things have changed for the better too, you know. It's ages since I heard women exchanging black humour about marital sex. They can just bloody leave now, instead of being trapped in "get it over with" twice a week.

... I think men's (generalised, stereotyped, media-guided) comprehension, lagging behind women's as it's always done, has attempted a reverse takeover. I'm sad to observe that it's achieving a measure of success. But I also think there are more men & women now who do get it, and do it right for them personally.

It's like some apocalyptic battle being waged on YouPorn

@vestal, almost every time i have PIV, i don't masturbate much as i find clitoral stimulation too intense, too quick, too narrow, like a pin prick, body spasms like being given an electric shock and everything now too numb or too sensitive to do anything else.
And i am far too lazy to faff around with a dildo for 30mins to and hour

You really have to wonder at the biological knowledge (or lack of it) of a poster who says sex is not painful unless you are a virgin.

It undermines the logic of anything else that poster has to say on the subject.

Sorry Lass, I wasn't aware that, once we'd responded to the consultation we had to sign up to the thread to say we had just to be harangued by a single issue poster who likes using women as masturbatory aids.

Will rectify that immediately.

Is she talking about Afghanistan under the Taliban ?

I don't know - I just searched the blog for her stance on prostitution. Maybe do some more extensive reading?

In Garlic Utopia (which probably smells a bit) every sexual encounter is a meeting of equals, sharing responsibility for any risk and equally interested in their own & one another's enjoyment. Long-term sexual relationships change as the participants, and their relationship dynamics, change.

Sounds nice. How do you propose to bring this about? See, what I wrote about outlawing PiV was not a description of utopia, but a thought experiment on how to deal with the shittyness of actual people in real life.

@Passive: You get an UTI every time you have PiV or every time you engage in any sexual activity, including masturbation?

The latter would be rather bleak.

Lass/Garllck - I agree with your last few posts.

Buffy - I get where you are coming from in your 19.01 post. I am not sure that PIV is a 'goal' in most relationships although I accept it might be portrayed that way in popular culture. As DeoGratis put it there are many other things people do and they are private and I dont discuss that on the internet either.

However, what I will say is that for many men PIV is nice enough but not a goal. What men in a mutual relationship want is their female partner to enjoy sex as much as they do and that is very much a 'goal'. What women forget is a man isn't psychic and if say PIV is nice enough but not your 'thing' then you talk about it and tell him what your 'thing' is. In many cases men will say PIV is not their 'thing' either. Then bingo both people are doing something other than PIV or maybe a bit of PIV plus something else.

There seems to be a perception on the thread that PIV is all men want and women should put up with it. It really really isn't true or necessary.

Wrt painful sex - one thing that's made me very angry since I first heard of it in my twenties is those implements women are supposed to use to stretch their vaginas! Honestly, if you're not built for PIV then you aren't built for it (or should find a nice man who fits.) Not set aside half an hour twice a day to insert glass or silicone rods in yourself to become more accommodating!

Yes, there's a lot of reasons why PIV might become painful - PID to name one very common reason, and childbirth for another. In well-balanced relationships, people find ways round this. They don't shove women full of painkillers so they can shove them full of dick.

... I'm getting cross with the medical establishment now

I get a uti almost every time i have sex

Arrow, I find sex painful, you've said twice in your post that it isn't, but you can't really speak for everyone can you.
There are many conditions/situations that can make piv painful.

Good point re offspring ownership, Garlick.

Vestal Sorry, derail but that link you referred me to contains statements such as

– ^Domestic servants: Same mechanism as for prostituted women except that their acquisition will be reserved to wealthier men who can afford to have slaves and/or servants in his domain. They act as surrogate inferior wives, wet nurses, cooks, cleaners, nannies, completing work that would otherwise be reserved for the married woman. The pater familias usually has right of rape over the domestic servants.
Then of course there are all those wild women who have bravely or luckily escaped male bondage: spinsters, lesbians, witches, hags, and other such revolting women that men have hunted down with all their might^ and

^Sub-categories of married women:
Married women are typically divided and isolated from other married women, especially from women belonging to other camps of male owners, since their interactions will mostly be limited to people authorised by her owner^

Is she talking about Afghanistan under the Taliban ?