"Intercourse/PIV is always rape, plain and simple."

For those of you in a mutual consesual sexual relation s hip with a man try this thought experiment.

Imagine you had just had consensual sex and you turned to him and said 'you just raped me'. Imagine his reaction. That is how ridiculously offensive thiis thread is. Its not a matter of debate. Its like someone starting a thread saying black people are less intelligent tban white people. Its untrue and its offensive. It would not be debated and most likely the thread would be deleted

I think it is pretty clear that every serious respondent on this thread has said, or at least implied, "not in my name"

Go call the blogger out yourself if you feel so strongly, FW

Personally, I read all sorts of shit on the internet every day, some of it within the hallowed walls of this parenting website, so forgive me if I don't chase every single example of it right back to source

FW, the first couple of pages is mostly saying that it's incorrect, then the discussion has become more general.

As OP isn't the blogger, best to comment direct in the blog comments to call it out.

'I saying' = 'is saying'

Why the hell are you lot so reluctant to call this woman out?

To put it bluntly the blogpost I saying that 'All men rape their wife, partner, girlfriend every time they engage in PIV.'

That is utter nonsense and there is no way past it.

Good grief it has taken decades for feminism to put 'All men are rapists' meme behind them (yes I know Dworkin never said it).

Do you really want this sort of commentary attaching to feminism?

yay for that

FW, everyone disagreed with the blog and we know the OP has form for fairly disingenuous posts.

As often happens on MN, though, people have taken an aspect of something unhelpful and developed an interesting discussion.

Yet here we have a number of people (I don't know if they all think of themselves as feminists) engaging with this thread even though they may not agree with it. Making for an interesting and respectful discussion. Unlike your dismissive post.

Your view doesn't represent my views as a feminist any more than Witchwinds. Feminists aren't a collective hive.

And this is a tiny discussion on a tiny corner of the Internet discussing a blog post that a relatively small amount of people have even heard of. It is not why people don't engage with feminism. People are only too ready to look for excuses not to engage with feminism. Wanting votes for women was reason enough a century ago.

Give over, FW.

If the rest of us can see the nuances, then so could you

You just don't want to. It's not compulsory, of course

But is is very bad manners to try and shut down discussion among others who are willing to try

No wonder so many women feel they cant engage with feminism

Hurrah! The preceeding discussion is now null and void.

AF - well this bit certainly knocks the last 30 years of my life into a cocked hat.

"Just to recall a basic fact: Intercourse/PIV is always rape, plain and simple."

That is just untrue and its the entire premise of the blogpost. There is no way of nuancing and debating around that point.

I dunno, FW, the rest of us on this thread seem to be having a civilised discussion

it's just you, mate

Oh FGS!

I cant believe you are all seriously debating this load of old tripe.

Let's just say it as it is. This blogpost reflects only the personal view this woman has about PIV. She clearly hates the idea of it. Fine. She doesn't have to do it.

That is not reflective of what feminists or even women in general think though.

No wonder so many women feel they cant engage with feminism

No worries, garlick, I need to go to sleep so I can't string a reply together. I don't feel impaired; more like there is a societal expectation that my boundaries (real and imagined, physical and emotional) should be porous.

I'm familiar with that train of thought, Roo - but, how can I put this ... it doesn't gel with my experience of living in a biologically female body: rapes notwithstanding.

I know this is going to come out garbled; am also very tired!

If PIV is conceptualised as invasion, the concept contains the idea of women's bodies as having holes. Our bodies must be somehow impaired.

... bugger, I've got to go and I'm nowhere near battling this out in words! Posting anyway. Sorry.

I will AF

I think garlick the argument may be that sex in an unequal society and where the risks of sex are unequal is about power and control; not that sex is about rape.

I am tired, so forgive me if not clear. I would see male power and control on a continuum. The continuum runs from the expectation that being in an intimate relationship means opening my legs as an act of love to the forcible opening of my legs by raping me.

Of course there is a subjective and objective difference between these two extremes - if there is consent, the expectation and negotiation of sexual intercourse is mutually considered and not pushed in any way (albeit with gendered power differentials); with rape, there is no mutual consideration and consent, it is about power and control as well as an act of violence.

These differences notwithstanding, even consenting penetrative sex is invasive and compromises a woman's bodily integrity in a way absent for men. How individuals negotiate or feel about it (love, warmth, enjoyment) does not change the fact that in bodily terms, it is invasive. Hormonal contraception is invasive, it goes in your body and changes physiology. Abortion is invasive. You can choose these things and how you interpret them might be dependent on context or choice, but penetrative sex involves something not of you going in you. Most common contraception involves something not of you going in you. It is kind of bizarre to think that this invasion is expected to be welcomed by half the population three times a week without other dynamics in play.

then stick around in Feminism Chat, Wish

from the most inauspicious of starts, a useful thread can grow

the penetrative act is seen as the prime indicator of who has the power and who doesn't.

Thanks for a really interesting answer there, SD. This is demonstrably true - I can't say I understand why it is seen so. I could easily be persuaded that this, itself, is an outcome of patriarchy. There aren't many practical reasons why a pretty vulnerable body part should be understood and used as a weapon. And I don't think your ordinary, decent man sees his penis that way.

I get that rape has been used as a means of social control: either for weakening or integrating a 'race' by forcing its women to make babies with the invading people. That, too, though, is an expression of patriarchal control - fairly literally - and little to do with sex. I suppose this could even have been the source of ideas about penis-as-weapon?

Very AF. Need to keep thinking about it, lots of things I've never really considered.

interesting though, Wish ?

I wish I could sit down round a fire with some hot cider and chat about this in person with you all. I don't know anyone in RL who would be happy talking about penis-in-vagina sex. And some of this is tiring to read when I'm not used to the concepts.

hmmm I don't think ALL PIV is rape but I am erring towards the idea that most women's first time might be...

I am pretty sure I only engaged in PIV for the first time because I had been societally conditioned to believe I wasn't a valued object in society if I didn't do it.

I mean it was all me pushing for it and boyfriend not wanting to go faster than I wanted, on the surface but where my motivation was sourced certainly wasn't in the idea of experiencing sexual pleasure of the sake of pleasure alone.

TBH the only times I have really wanted PIV and actually enjoyed it, were will conceiving.

And as previously mentioned I would welcome the day when babies get made and grown in tanks.

Can't WAIT to hear what the excuse for the persisting gender pay gap will be when that happens....

So is this discussion leaning towards the view that, after all, rape is about sex rather than power & control?

Good point. The definition of rape DOES involve penetration, that is after what we commonly think of as being rape, whether against a male or a female.

But I think there is a clear reason why rape, as (trying) to take or express or claim power over another, involves for the rapist, penetration, since the penetrative act is seen as the prime indicator of who has the power and who doesn't.

I think it's not that rape is about sex, but that rape is about power, and the powerful then express 'ordinary' sex as well as being about power for them, hence the emphasis on penetrative sex as opposed to anything else.