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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Intercourse/PIV is always rape, plain and simple."

466 replies

partialderivative · 03/12/2015 15:46

I was trying to find out what piv sex meant when I came across this blog.

witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

I was rather taken aback by its premise.

Other quotes include:
...intercourse is NEVER sex for women...
...intercourse is inherently harmful to women and intentionally so...

Is this a commonly held view point amongst feminists? Or just the extreme radical side.

I am not posting this to be goady, if anything quite the opposite.

OP posts:
SomeDyke · 04/12/2015 09:54

So, for hetero sex, that seems to leave male on female oral and masturbation. Is that really what posters are arguing for?
What's wrong with doing it like dykes? The post just made it sound as if without PI-something, no utopia. Yet many dykes I know have managed their whole lives with what you describe. So please don't imply that even just mutual masturbation and rubbing etc and no penis in anything can't be good sex. Tribades and gay men into frotting disagree.

Also, the many posts comparing 'extreme' radical feminists and feminists to ISIS vs Islam! Some people are really scared of women asking awkward questions (but none of whom have ever murdered anyone in the name of their beliefs although Valerie Solanas did shoot Andy Warhol.)

OneMoreCasualty · 04/12/2015 09:41

In days of yore, I have no doubt that many couples practiced contraception by not having PIV when not wanting to conceive.

BertrandRussell · 04/12/2015 09:39

Presumably you weren't hearing many actual feminists say it? It's the sort of thing non/anti feminists use as a stick to beat feminists with.

I did have the women/man/fish/bicycle badge though

PassiveAgressiveQueen · 04/12/2015 09:20

This is the sort of opinion that i was hearing as "feminist opinion" in the 80s as a kid along with "women need men like fish need bikes"

DeoGratias · 04/12/2015 09:13

I support her right to make those comments. Most women don't get STDs and suffer damage from consensual penetrative sex and some men and women enjoy "forced" but consensual sex.

Most women don't orgasm from penetrative sex so you could argue it is not the best sex for them unless they want a baby and that it might be better and safer and more pleasurable for them if they never have it. There are plenty of people who seek relationships without any penetrative sex at all and that includes men who just want to be whipped but without sex and all the full panoply of the complexity which is human sexuality.

In fact if your sex life is just PIV I'd say wow - how boring, personally.

As to what is "rape" as a lawyer I can only go by what the law says. For much of my life a husband could not in law rape his wife in England as wives gave continuous consent to sex at marriage similar to Islam - and like Islam though any other physical violence to obtain that consent however was illegal. English law then changed in the 90s to say that a husband could rape his wife in marriage even without any other battery or violence which I am sure is regarded as a good change by most women. You can also divorce a wife in England for unreasonable behaviour is she refuses sex (and a woman can do the same to a man) so we clearly do see it as culturally normal that there will be sex in most marriages.

itsbetterthanabox · 04/12/2015 08:46

Mephis this isn't an extremist view though. It being different to yours doesn't mean it is extremist. It's just an uncomfortable issue to discuss but we discuss choice under patriarchy when it comes to most other acts yet it's extreme when it's about sex? Why.

BuffytheScaryFeministBOO · 04/12/2015 08:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LurcioAgain · 04/12/2015 08:30

This is a fascinating discussion. I know I've mentioned this before, but I write a bit (amateur, very bad), some of it erotica. And it is fascinating as someone who likes PIV, likes it enough to want to write about it, to set about unpicking the male gaze, the underlying assumptions about power relationships both in and out of bed, the fundamental issue of a lack of vocabulary (there is no word, barring the clinical clitoris, for the organ that is actually responsible for the female orgasm - one is reduced to twee euphemisms and work-arounds). At both extremes of the spectrum - deliberately provocative blogposts that all PIV is rape, and trying to write feminist friendly erotica - you collide with the fact that how we view sex is conditioned by a world, even a language, which takes the male sexual experience as primary and central. (Re. penetration and the excellent point made up thread about not reducing women's bodies simply to holes, I toy with alternative language about "enveloping" , etc. - trying to make women's bodies an active part of the scene rather than passive recipients).

It's also interesting as a kind of piece of social anthropology to read slash fanfiction (male gay erotica written primarily by women for women). Some of it is written I think out of despair that it is so damned hard to write a relationship of equals for a heterosexual couple - so two men together gives you an idealised way of exploring relationships without the underlying socially predetermined power imbalance in het relationships (even the equal ones - because society in terms of expectations from family, the workplace schools - whose number gets called first when the kids are ill - all this eats up enormous amounts of head space because you actively have to fight against it if you want an equal relationship). Some of it does reproduce the tropes about power imbalance - there are some hilarious arguments out there about whether one partner should always "bottom" or whether they can swap over. And some of it actually reproduces the worst sort of "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" tropes imaginable (so called alpha/omega slash), because the writers are so embroiled in their own patriarchal cultures that they simply cannot make the imaginative leap to see a culture which could be different. (Important disclaimer - very little if any of this vast body of writings bears any resemblance to anything a gay man would actually recognise as his own life, if my conversations with gay male friends are anything to go by).

Sorry, possibly a bit off topic, but I do think it is fascinating when you start digging into the assumptions about power underlying het sex. You can do this with the sort of deliberately extremely provocative blog post at the start, or you can come at it from lit crit, or you can come at it by asking "why is rape in the criminal justice system conceptualised from the male POV as 'how did I know she consented?' rather than from the female point of view as 'sex I did not want'). But whichever way you come at it, sex doesn't happen in some primal animalistic bubble detached from surrounding culture, it comes with all the power relationships and inequalities of that culture.

MephistophelesApprentice · 04/12/2015 08:07

And, like Isis, the moderates completely disagree with the extremists interpretation... but, you know, after kicking it round a bit, taking all things together, the extremists might just have a few points after all...

NOT saying feminism is equivalent to radical Islam, just that the distinctions between moderates and extremists in any movement are always blurrier than the moderates would claim.

BertrandRussell · 04/12/2015 08:05

I don't think anyone is agreeing with the blogger. However, reading the blog has sparked a wider discussion about consent, and societal expectations of women - and men. The first few pages of the thread are mostly composed of people disagreeing with the blogger's point of view.

Noneedforasitter · 04/12/2015 08:01

Scallop - so turn it around and look at it from a female perspective. Imagine a rape victim walking into a crisis centre and being greeted with "I know what you are going through. I had loving penetrative sex with my partner last night."

scallopsrgreat · 04/12/2015 07:57

And as for losing the all men are rapists trope, I don't think we'll ever lose that and I don't think we should waste our energy trying to. Feminism isn't about pleasing men. They should feel uncomfortable, upset, angry and find parts of it unpallatable. It really is sweet FA in comparison to what men as a class have put women through over the millennia. And we should be challenging their privilege and oppression.

scallopsrgreat · 04/12/2015 07:53

It doesn't belittle rape. It makes you think about consent in a patriarchy and whether women can truly give consent. It takes rape and consent as a thing defined by men (which it is in the main) and makes what happens to women and their experiences the focus.
"Imagine you had just had consensual sex and you turned to him and said 'you just raped me'. Imagine his reaction." There. Putting men's feelings at the forefront of a discussion about rape and consent.

And the reaction to FW wasn't about what she said but how she was so dismissive and refusing to engage. She doesn't have to engage of course. Just like she doesn't have to be rude and dissmissive either.

Noneedforasitter · 04/12/2015 07:11

Romii - I didn't mean that any of the posters were belittling rape, I don't think they were. But the original blog certainly did so, because it equated all penetrative sex as rape.

ShortcutButton · 04/12/2015 07:08

This is a bit of a tangent, but it is something that recurrs a lot on threads about female grooming in particular;

This author is not saying that individual women 'do not know their own tiny female minds'. The point is that society has evolved in such a way to prioritise male preferences; and makes them female preferences

RoganJosh · 04/12/2015 06:53

Sorry to lower the tone, but I'm loving the adverts I've got at the bottom if that page:

Butt hinges and a bed.
Made me laugh.

"Intercourse/PIV is always rape, plain and simple."
RomiiRoo · 04/12/2015 06:42

And as for the argument that the argument belittles rape, and I mean the several pages of nuanced and complex argument made by posters before me, ignores the central point about what is seen to constitute rape and what anyone does about it in a context where PIV is considered the norm in a context of inequality.

RomiiRoo · 04/12/2015 06:35

there is a very interesting debate here which goes in some ways to the heart of feminism which no one on this thread has reduced to 'all men are rapists' (although given the sexualisation and commercialisation of women's bodies, rape culture, and unreported and unprosecuted cases, and the way rape is used as a weapon in war, clearly a significant proportion are - get your head out of the sand. It is not all about you, FW, it is about a social and economic culture which is intrinsically unequal and privileges those designated man because of their genitalia.

This argument does not equal all men are rapists, nor does it mean anyone here is going to turn round and tell their intimate partner they have been being raped all that time (although in all the women on MN you will undoubtedly find that there is a fine line between consent and expectation/ between expectation and coercion and so on).

Before I read that, I was reflecting on my own experiences. I am not about to post them on the Internet to make an analytical point. However, non-subjectively, you just have to look at the changing historical framework of consent legally and socially in the last 30 years to know that you are on dodgy ground with your example of 30 years experience.

That takes us back to 1985 - legally, a women had consented to sex by getting married; she had consented to sex by being drunk or otherwise incapacitated. She had consented to sex by going to sleep in the same bed or house as a man with no-one else present, or in a room with a door or where everyone else was asleep. That is the crux of the argument - consent is not some fixed objective measure, it is defined in many social, cultural and legal ways - and those ways are historically and culturally specific.

Noneedforasitter · 04/12/2015 06:20

I'm surprised at the response to Freeworker, who was only pointing out what is self-evident: that the blog is absurd. At the very least, It belittles rape.

In relation to the debate about alternatives to PIV, I thought women don't generally enjoy PIM and even less PIA (assuming those are the right acronyms). So, for hetero sex, that seems to leave male on female oral and masturbation. Is that really what posters are arguing for? It seems like a fairly diminished view of sexual utopia to me.

Elendon · 04/12/2015 04:42

Have woken up early and can't sleep. This is an interesting thread and I just wanted to add some very good posts too.

I've known het men who have admitted that they don't particularly enjoy penetrative sex, they much prefer other ways of pleasuring. They also said that they couldn't see how penetrative sex could be enjoyable for the woman either. What they loved most was the intimacy and of course the thrill.

I do orgasm with PIV, but prefer non PIV stuff too. I agreed with my male partners that there was way to much emphasis put on PIV. Mind you times have changed and it just seems now to be all about penetration; mouth, anus, vagina.

itsbetterthanabox · 04/12/2015 01:28

Obviously people would still have sex for reproduction but pregnancy would only happen when both parties truly wanted it. Which would be nice.

itsbetterthanabox · 04/12/2015 01:26

I can see the point and agree to an extent.
When you think about it it doesn't make sense that we have piv sex when there are so many other ways of enjoying sexual pleasure that don't risk pregnancy or STDs. It really is only women who bear the risk and it is a great risk. Pregnancy is life changing and potentially deadly yet we do it and men have no risk just fun. I do wonder if we lived in society (if one existed!) that didn't glorify PIV and see it as the only 'real sex' and focused more on female than make pleasure whether we would see PIV as worth the high risk to women's bodies.

IGotAPea · 04/12/2015 01:03

I've found the thread very interesting. It's given me loads to think about. I'll post properly tomorrow when I'm not so tired.

eloquent · 03/12/2015 23:25

My face is so deeply embedded in mt palm right now, that i don't think ill ever retrieve it.

RufusTheReindeer · 03/12/2015 23:18

I am enyoying the thread

I think its fascinating

I am a feminist but i usually lurk Grin

You don't have to agree with everyone but sometimes something just resonates

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