"Intercourse/PIV is always rape, plain and simple."

Oh, sorry- was not referring to you all as wankers! I shall slink off now and look for that book thread.

You make a fair point, VV. From my personal experience alone, however - the proportion of men who do get it is higher than I thought. And I do mean in all age groups; my 90-year-old stepfather gets it.

The change, again speaking personally, came about through therapy. My earlier conditioning led to my holding a ferociously patriarchal world-view which, despite my feminist activism, I hadn't really noticed I held. Non-patriarchal men kind of escaped my view. I think I would've assumed they were pretending! Now I'm able to notice and appreciate non-patriarchal people, while also being more acutely aware of unconscious bias in others.

... which I suppose is vaguely relevant, in that I seem to be saying I have, in therapy, partially addressed the "thought invasion" discussed above.

I was actually referring to forums like mumsnet. I know one German language forum that is, allegedly, for women, just like mumsnet, but where there are all sorts of wankers. (The number of entitled males on there is stunning!)

There is a feminist book thread on here, not on feminist chat, but on another feminist forum - might be feminist theory.

Ah, I haven't read any forums. I think those sort of places attracts the wankers.
Is there a feminist book thread on here? I have looked but haven't seen one.

Always much less likely people notice inequality/fight for equality when they hold the power.

Only that, unlike white people and racism, men usually know, and even live with women who experience patriarchal oppression daily.

There are a few men who actually apply critical thinking to their privileges and ask themselves: "Why should my wife have to feel unsafe when walking home alone at night? Can't that be fixed?", or "Wait, why should my wife have to take hormones that have severe side effects when I could just use a condom?"

However, if I look at forums, I get the impression that many, maybe even most men, actively embrace their male privilege. They simply do not love the women in their lives. And I absolutely do blame them for that, as it is dishonest.

Genuinely horrified by the "ended a relationship with a girlfriend because she wouldn't let him penetrate her anally, even after...him helping her get on the London property ladder". What should property and anal sex have to do with each other? It shows how clearly for him sex, rights and money have become inextricably linked, in a way I kind of hoped was gone for good.

I know a lot of women (mid to late20's/ early 30's) who don't think feminism= man hating, but they don't really know what the point of it is either. Like socialism. Or communism. They see these as things that belong to the 60s/70s and aren't relevant anymore.
I don't blame men per se for their advantages, it's like being white, you're born that way and privilege comes with it. Always much less likely people notice inequality/fight for equality when they hold the power.

To restate the obvious, this is why the word patriarchy comes in useful. It's too easy to read "hate men as a class" as "hate all men", which is clearly not the same thing. Patriarchy is the system that favours men. It's perpetuated by individuals of all genders, including Pit's friend above, and affects everyone. But not all men are patriarchal, and not all men seek to unfairly use their patriarchal advantages.

They don't have to seek to unfairly use their patriarchal advantages, they have them, and will use them, without even trying.

I do not waste my time by talking to people who don't get that no woman individually hates "all men". (How would one even do that? The accusation is often made, but it is mostly hurled at women who simply do not wish to have sex with men. That's what is declared "hate" if a woman is doing it. I have never ever met, or even heard of a woman, online or in real life, who wanted to kill all men.)

People who believe in the "all feminists are evil man haters and soooo much wooorse than patriarchy" dogma are not worth talking to, nothing will convince them that feminism is about justice - they usually believe that justice means men get three quarters of the cake and women get one.

@PitPat: I understand why you were uncomfortable, I would be, too. One should get therapy for trauma, not reenact it on other people. But I get why s/he thought that therapy was no solution, considering what happened. It is a messed-up system that produces that kind of transman.

Don't worry Buffy I realised that. Thanks for saying though.

The things we discussed during that friendship made me think very deeply about what we are conditioned to accept and social transmission.

Vestal that's a really good way of putting it "getting out of patriarchal oppression". That really encapsulates what I was trying to say clearly and succinctly. The lengths he had to go to and was prepared to go to get out of patriarchal oppression.

I was made uncomfortable at times by the thought that he was prepared to become the oppressor, rather than challenge the paradigm (by this I mean his preferences for sex that looked like rape, ending a relationship over being refused anal penetration rather than his transition). Then, his early attempts to challenge the paradigm by speaking up about the abuse met with total maternal rejection so i can see that being a huge pressure to find a way to conform whilst still avoiding being penetrated/being powerless.

His mother's anger with him when he spoke up and her dismissal and minimising of the abuse he suffered was so deeply hurtful to him. She went totally NC after he came out as lesbian, later they had some family counselling to reconcile, she threatened to withdraw from it and it made a huge dent in him. He made changes to his appearance (less dyke, more male- he could really pass, even before transition) to make her more comfortable and the therapy continued. She gave him a substantial amount of money to clear debts, go into rehab again and buy a house, then he transitioned and the relationship got better and better as he became professionally successful. His mother said that his professional success made it easier to see him in a "male " role so his being transgender was easier to accept than his being a lesbian.

It's a question!

OK, you reckon you know the answer with no further examination. Fine. That's no reason to keep telling all the posters here to stop posting.

Buffy/Cailin - I am not going raking back through the whole thread but this quote catches my eye.

"Posters here are trying to look at the whole cultural expectation of PIV in sexual relationships, and examining to what extent it forms such a pressure - on women in particular - that it could be called coercion.

The prevalence and strength of this expectation allows for several arguments that it can be called coercion. "

That is saying women in general are having PIV because they are expected to - not because they want to for themselves. In fact it goes back to say PIV is rape because its only happening because of 'coercion'.

That is utter rubbish. Its simply not true.

Oooh, that's an upsetting story Pit.

Fwiw and tmi, I prefer(red, I've more or less given up for now) PIV and do not experience it as submission unless I'm acting something out. I don't think any of my partners have been bothered about this - they probably didn't even know. But it would be ridiculous to base any discussion on my experiences alone. For one thing, my experiences have been quite varied and, for another, I'm not so daft that I can't see how many other perspectives there are.

Do you mind it I pick this up?
"It's not okay to hate men" ... why not? Why shouldn't we hate men, as a class, for all they have done, and are doing to women on a daily basis?

To restate the obvious, this is why the word patriarchy comes in useful. It's too easy to read "hate men as a class" as "hate all men", which is clearly not the same thing. Patriarchy is the system that favours men. It's perpetuated by individuals of all genders, including Pit's friend above, and affects everyone. But not all men are patriarchal, and not all men seek to unfairly use their patriarchal advantages.

@PitPat: What a horrible story ... though I do think even for transmen with a happier childhood, it is often about getting out of patriarchal oppression. I have read dozens of blog posts by butch lesbians who state that, if the transgender movement had been as active in their youth, they might have identified as transmen.

@Buffy: I totally didn't even notice. However, if a woman obtained a penis with violence, and then raped another woman with it ... that would still be rape in legal terms, wouldn't it?

Going to mention the experience of a friend as I think it highlights a lot about the status of PIV sex.

Had a very intense friendship with a person who at the time identified as somewhere between a lesbian and a transgender f to m who was attracted to straight women and gay men, 15 years later he has now transitioned fully, is married, has a child (conceived via IVF using one of his eggs and donor sperm and carried to term by his partner).

At the time we were friends, he was very clear about his reasons for wanting to transition from female to male.

He had suffered abuse at the hands of an older male family member from a young age (around 5 or 6). There had been incestuous relationships between himself and other young family members who were also suffering from abuse whilst they were all still very much under age (he referred to that as being relationships that were comforting and helped him endure, then deal with/heal from the abuse to an extent).

The abuse came to light within the family when my friend had a nervous breakdown and suffered severe alcoholism and drug addiction whilst a tween/young teenager. it was hushed up and swept aside. The abuser paid for rehab and in the wider world/therapy and my friend was basically told to shut up and stop complaining, don't rock the boat. The abuser had a lot of power and influence, both within the family and beyond, quite a wealthy and connected man. Family position was that withdrawal of the abuser's "good graces" from my friend's nuclear family would be damaging to them all, so put up and shut up (his mum was the main proponent of this stance).

My friend staggered through their teenage years in and out of a drunken/drugged haze, AA and rehab, was sexually assaulted and raped again a lot of times by various people. Got clean when they moved away to university at the other end of the country (so away from family situation), started having sexual relationships with women, came out as a lesbian.

Later realised his wasn't attracted to lesbians, just bi and straight women and gay men who were interested in being penetrated not penetrating. Started to transition. Freely shared the fact that the only sex he was really interested/got a sexual charge from was very fast forced sex where he would penetrate another person with a penis, and that it did "look a lot like rape". Was prepared to perform other sex acts in order to maintain a relationship, but always as "the giver not the receiver". Ended a relationship with a girlfriend because she wouldn't let him penetrate her anally, even after 6 months of arguments and him helping her to get on the London property ladder.

He was very clear that he wanted to transition because men get a better life, that he didn't want to have to be the receptive partner, that a man/top got the better end of the "deal" in a male/female or male/male relationship, that sex for him was all about power and that it was more sexually exciting to humiliate someone verbally with no "sexual" contact than have sexual contact that wasn't his preferred variety (fast forced penetrative sex with no foreplay that looked non-consensual).

So, for him, transitioning was totally about being able to adopt a more powerful position in life generally, in relationships and in the bedroom. Sexual penetration was totally about being the one in control/having power. That to avoid unwanted penetration was to become a financially and socially powerful male person. That staying female and refusing to be penetrated was not a realistic or socially acceptable option. That giving social and financial protection/help creates an entitlement to penetration that cannot reasonably be denied.

(This is clearly not representative of male/female, female/female, male/male relations, or the motivations of transgender people. It was clearly born in early traumatic experiences, could in some ways be a way of dealing with that trauma.)

FreeWorker you don't seem to be understanding the discussion at all. Who said women didn't like PIV?

I find the reaction to this point of view rather interesting.

Namely the "She hates sex" reactions - no, she doesn't hate sex, she hates PiV. There's a difference. Unless you choose to define all other sexually pleasurable acts as "petting". In which case lesbian sex doesn't exist in your worldview.

Also, "It's not okay to hate men" ... why not? Why shouldn't we hate men, as a class, for all they have done, and are doing to women on a daily basis?

Why do you think "hating women for no reason whatsoever/to justify oppressing women" and "hating men because of the things many men do, and an even larger number of men watch while doing nothing" is remotely the same, ethically speaking?

@Buffy: Great explanation. :)

The debate has now it seems got down to agreeing some women want PIV but only because those nasty men have made them think they want PIV.

Why is it so hard to say that some women like PIV because physically and psychologically they enjoy it and more to the point would be unhappy if their male partner refused to do it in the medium/long term.

It absolutely within anyone's right not to want or have PIV but why does feminism want to define women as so feeble minded that they cant want anything for themselves of their own free will. It always has to be because the patriarchy made them want it.

What do we mean by 'wanting penetration by a penis'? Do we mean that a woman agrees to it, enjoys it, loves the sensation and craves it as often as possible, or whatever?

In ladies-loo conversations and forum threads, the consensus usually seems to be that male genitals are ugly, weird or hilarious. The women chortling about it mostly have functioning sexual relationships with men - meaning they welcome said ugly/weird organs into their bodies on a regular basis.

You don't hear so much of "lie back and be nice" or "can't wait to get all that over with" these days. But are most/many women still putting up with it, making the best of it? I don't know. It's not often discussed.