"Intercourse/PIV is always rape, plain and simple."

"Have you ever wondered why so many women on MN daren't post in the feminism section? "

No, no, we haven't, because that has never come up before and is BRAND NEW INFORMATION!

No problem, scallops. :)

abbie, I agree. I'd say that if we are pissing off some of the blokes then we're probably doing something right

Yes ... maybe we could use that like a compass that points south? Like, any time a bloke is pissed off at something we say, move in that direction?

I guess we would have to wait if blokes everywhere on the politic spectrum are pissed off, to make sure they are actually pissed off at the feminism and not some communist or capitalist or atheist or religious implications of it ...

So ... how about legally banning PiV? Can we discuss that? Maybe that is an idea that holds some value.

AND I like PIV

Sorry Vestal that 'good point' was about the rest of the internet being for men! Although you've made other good points since then!

I'm a woman and a feminist free. And I live in the real world

Yes Vestal you make a good point.

Although this persistent whining of "You are just doing it wrong! Why aren't you just listeneing to meeeee! I know best! If only women listened to men then they'd get equality" gets very tiresome.

It doesn't matter how feminism presents itself. It doesn't matter what feminism does there will always be naysayers. Unless we were out actively pleasing men then it might be different. But then the goalposts would always be changing too! So no I don't wonder why people don't engage with feminism/FWR. I know why and it isn't what Freeworker and rest are purporting to. It's just whatever excuse they can immediately find.

abbie, I agree. I'd say that if we are pissing off some of the blokes then we're probably doing something right .

Feminism really has lost its way if the people it is supposed to be helping and represent are rejecting it.

I case you didn't know, feminism is not supposed to help and represent males.

People believed that tomatoes are poisonous and that going too fast would mess with your brain.

Doesn't make it true.

Feminism has no opinion on whether you should hate men - that's up to an individual, as is the choice to wear makeup or have PIV.

People can discuss why things are, and why things are done without hating them, people can even critique things, yet still like them (I can point out many issues with the roast dinner I cooked last week, yet I still rather enjoyed eating it)

Hating something based in unfounded beliefs is prejudice - I'd prefer to educate myself and figure out if something's worth disliking (and that means talking about it and asking questions) before charging in and getting my ill-informed opinions over everything.

Ideas that provoke knee jerk hostility are often the most interesting.

I agree. A lot of insight can be gained just by studying the knee jerk hostile responses to this blog post.

Many men believe feminism hates men and labels them as rapists.

Men believed that voting rights for women would lead to a matriarchy as cruel and oppressive as the patriarchy they had going at the time. Nothing new there.
If you want those "many men" to like feminism, you have to make it completely unfeminist, to the point of destroying women's right to vote.
Then, men might like it. But it would not be feminism anymore.

Feminism really has lost its way if the people it is supposed to be helping and represent are rejecting it.

This thread is a good example of how feminism just isn't in the real world.

Call it commonsensical style outrage if you like but most people operate on a common sense level. That is why sex between two people who have consented is not regarded as rape. Its common sense.

Dressing it up as a pseudo intellectual discussion still makes it utter claptrap.

For fuck's sake, FreeWorker, if you can't tell the difference between discussing an individual relationship and discussing the power structures behind all our daily lives, you probably ought to avoid all political conversations.

I think you do get it, though. You're just being a prat.

Well, I will admit to being quite a contrary old baggage, but I have to confess that the common sensical style outrage that anyone would even dare discuss this blog post makes me think there must be plenty in it. Ideas that provoke knee jerk hostility are often the most interesting.

scallops - at the moment a great many people, both men and women' regard feminism as a movement that despises normal human heterosexual relationships. Many women believe feminism despises them for liking men, for wearing makeup and making themselves attractive to men.

Many men believe feminism hates men and labels them as rapists.

This thread really plays straight into that set of stereotypical beliefs about feminism.

Have you ever wondered why so many women on MN daren't post in the feminism section? It really isn't helping women at all to tell them their DH/DP is raping them or at the very least is coercing them into PIV and that they are only enjoying it because they don't know their own mind and are conditioned.

What a great message to send to women. You don't even have to care what men think to see that message is bizarre, insulting and harmful to women.

@scallops: The blokes can pat themselves on the back everywhere else on the internet. I'd like to keep this thread.

Emma, I think you may be new. Welcome! What kind of feminism doesn't alienate others, IYO?

"Believe or not" is a fairly inane thing to post when several posters on the thread have also said they like PIV.

But if you don't like the thread, start another few on various feminist topics and see if they get bumped ahead of this one. Might be more productive.

Feminism really doesn't help itself sometimes.

Feminism is better off without people who "don't support feminism" just because some feminist somewhere has dared to say something critical about PiV.

Either you believe that women are human, or you don't. If you opinion is so dependent on what some single feminist on the internet writes, you are doing feminism wrong.

I think we should just leave this thread to the blokes to pat themselves on the back on how well they are telling women how to do feminism.

It's all about the men after all.

emmawink1 - that's exactly what I think.

Feminism really doesn't help itself sometimes.

Bertrand* "How does that work then?"

By discussing it in terms on this thread that suggest (if not in complete agreement) that somehow they agree normal hetero sex between men and women in loving sexual relationships is somehow an expression of patriarchal domination of women and if not exactly rape it is always a coercive act on some level.

Believe it or not many millions of women in mutually consensual relationship really like PIV. Sometimes they don't feel up to it and they tell their male partner. Oh and believe it or not many millions of men in mutually consensual relationship really like PIV. Sometimes they don't feel up to it and they tell their female partner.

Mumsnet is for women and men, other than the rest of the internet (with some exceptions I don't know about, likely), which is for men only.

@BertrandRussell: We are alienating people who could otherwise support us by being feminists, plain and simple, no matter what opinion we may hold on the "PiV is always rape" statement. I bet we would get more support if we became MRAs while stilll calling ourselves feminists.

If "get support" is our end goal.

I reject any and all "helpful" suggestions of how to "alienate" less people.

People who care about women will be feminists regardless of what they think of other feminists.
People who do not care about women will never be feminists. Their opinion does not matter.

""[penis is vagina sex] is always rape"

This sort of thing is why a lot of people are distancing themselves from feminism.

All you are doing is alienating people who could otherwise support you."

What, by saying repeatedly that we don't agree, and that it is an incredibly niche viewpoint? How does that work, then?

"I know one German language forum that is, allegedly, for women, just like mumsnet"

mumsnet is for women only? So why does the slogan say "by parents for parents"? Shouldn't it be changed to "by mothers for mothers?"

"[penis is vagina sex] is always rape"

This sort of thing is why a lot of people are distancing themselves from feminism.

All you are doing is alienating people who could otherwise support you.

Wish have a look at this thread