"Intercourse/PIV is always rape, plain and simple."

Oops. Something something grey rock, etc.

Heh heh heh

(Apologies for bumping but that was funny)

Oops. Something something grey rock, etc.

It's not even a commonly-held view amongst us gay feminists who have previously had PIV sex and decided we didn't like it all that much but understand that many other women do.

Ooops. Thanks.

thatdamnwoman, it's a zombie thread. Look at the date of the OP and most of the discussion.

If that was to me, you'll need to elaborate.

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I agree with her that almost from the moment a girl child is born she is raised within a heteronormative and sexualised environment which effectively grooms her into expecting/ accepting/ desiring/ desperately seeking relationships with men to validate her existence. This is why so many lesbians come out later in life: they go along with it until with maturity and experience they have the strength to work out who they really are.

There are also political lesbians: lesbians who, while not necessarily primarily sexually attracted to women, choose to centre their lives around women and live and work with women.

I imagine that quite a few of the girls waiting for their appointments at the Tavistock so that they can become transmen are either lesbians or asexual or have other reasons for wanting to avoid sexual contact with men.

There was a thread on here recently about the OMGyes site in which women can pay to see videos that will help them enjoy sex with men more. Looked at from one perspective you can see it as simple self-help: looked at from another you might see it as women being asked to pay to perpetuate the idea that PIV sex is the Everest, as it were, of sexual experience. Paying to perpetuate the patriarchal stranglehold on them. Paying to perpetuate the idea that having sex is one of the most important things a woman can do in her life, when clearly it's not.

I think the genesis of this idea comes from Andrea Dworkin’s writings. Which I fathom as being somewhat hyperbolic (I may be wrong though). It’s meant to shock and shake our preconceptions around sex itself.

Well. Op, I am reassured by the answers. I got politicised in the early 1980s as a single parent. Read every bit of feminism I could find. Until I came to the book that genuinely said you should chuck out boy children at 6.
Took this shit storm to bring me back.

ZOMBIE THREAD!

Zombie thread.

I think her views are quite extreme but i do agree that it seems like lots of men just use womens bodies as a masturbation tool/receptacle. Everyone has the right to do what they want with their body though, so fair enough as long as the woman wants it.

Mention of MGTOW made me think of this extract from Lois Bujold's Ethan of Athos. She created a (heavily tongue-in-cheek) planet populated entirely by men (founded of course by one of those wild-eyed religious prophets who view women primarily as enticers of men into sin, and made possible by futuristic advances in reproductive technology).

The dialogue starts with the eponymous hero talking about his society’s financial difficulties to a female off-worlder: “Why, on Athos child-rearing absorbs most of the planet’s resources. Food of course – housing – education, clothing, medical care - it takes nearly all our efforts just to maintain population replacement, let alone increase.”
Elli Quin quirked an eyebrow. “How odd. On other worlds, people seem to come in floods.”
Ethan said “Really? I don’t see how that can be. Why, the labour costs alone of bringing a child to maturity are astronomical. There must be something wrong with your accounting.”
Her eyes screwed up in an expression of sudden ironic insight. “Ah, but on other worlds the labour costs aren’t added in. They’re counted as free.”
Ethan stared. “What an absurd bit of double thinking! Athonians would never sit still for such a hidden labour tax!”
“I believe,” her voice was edged with a peculiar dryness, “they call it women’s work. And the supply usually exceeds the demand – non-union scabs, as it were, undercutting the market.”

I think most of us on the thread support the women of Japan if they choose not to have PIV sex and not to have children. It can be a wise decision for many and often has been in history. ven in the UK in the 1500s plenty of women chose to join all women convents to avoid the burdens and health risks of having PIV sex, bearing children and having the drudgery of looking after a man and children.

"Maybe Japan should enable those young women to...."

How about women in Japan decide for themselves what they want to do instead of some idiot Western feminist suggesting what they "should" do?

Let me guess that you haven't in any way read the thread...

SD- Have you read 'The Gate to Women's Country' by Sheri Tepper? She's wrong on a few things but that book has stayed with me for some reason. I also love 'The Left Hand of Darkness', and anything by her really.

We need about 5 in 6 people to die on the planet to be sustainable so the less PIV sex the better one could argue, for the good of the planet.

Yes, but it would be preferable if it was not happening so fast, as the elderly need someone to care for them. (Okay, maybe in Japan they just commit suicide, but I don't think that's ideal.)

Maybe Japan should enable those young women to become pregnant by sperm donors and give them enough money so that they are financially as well off as women without children.

Oh, Japan. If sex is bad for women, logically it is the place for a woman to be. And it seems women and men agree that a life without a partner and without sex is just fine.

www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/20/young-people-japan-stopped-having-sex

"This was also the year, as the number of elderly people shoots up, that adult incontinence pants outsold baby nappies in Japan for the first time."

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing and the Japanese do have a huge variety and different kinds of sexual fantasy and practices. We need about 5 in 6 people to die on the planet to be sustainable so the less PIV sex the better one could argue, for the good of the planet.

Although I've just had a similar debate with one of my teenagers who was not impressed with my views.

Right bed time and no PIV sex tonight for me.

Deo - "Perhaps more and more of us male and female are moving to wards living alone without PIV sex and are a lot happier for that."

Japan is a country where that is increasingly the case. Young women rejecting the idea of living with a man entirely and staying with parents. They have money a free place to live and freedom to live their life. DW lived in and visited Japan fairly regularly and said it was a very obvious phenomenon even in the late 80s and early 90s. The men seem equally uninterested.

As a result they have a population crisis and a dramatically ageing population.

I've always wondered when we will reach a point when we can implant a ferilised egg in an articifical womb what will happen. Some men already actively choose to have children paying a surrogate - a footballer has and his mother helps bring up the child.

I just showed one of my teenage boys the Men going their own way (MGTOW) postings on line including part of this video www.mgtow.com/video/the-exploitation-of-male-virtues/ which caused him to have a fit of giggles actually. Most MGTOW can't pull and are losers and plenty are virgins (one might argue) or you could instead say they are simply men choosing to reject PIV sex because the disadvantages they derive from it do not make up for the advantages of not having women in their lives.

Perhaps more and more of us male and female are moving to wards living alone without PIV sex and are a lot happier for that.