proposed legislation in scotland - licensed saunas and legalised prostitution

emmawinkl i think what I find most objectionable about the NZ and German model is that it surrenders to patriarchy, it works on the premise that women are going to be exploited anyway so might as well make it easier. Women do not want to prostitute themselves but are forced to out of poor circumstances, I want to women not be forced to prostitute themselves.

I want to smash patriarchy, white supremacy and poverty.

I'm not sure what I think but it's important to note that the reason this has come up is because in Scotland when we had multiple police forces Edinburgh always turned a blind eye to brothels, it was the official policy not to raid them unless there was trouble or drugs etc. Glasgow didn't have this policy and doesn't have "saunas" in the same way.
Now there's just one single police force they need to decide what to do, obviously they've been going for the "shut them down as they're illegal" angle up to now.
Many women's organisations in Edinburgh will say it was better / safer when it was allowed.

So.... If you are repelled by the idea of legal sex work full stop then I understand that.
But if you're looking for pragmatic solutions to protect women then personally rather than looking to NZ or to Sweden I'd be looking at what the Edinburgh organisations are saying. They've worked in both situations in our country and culture so I'd be listening to what they say.

"I think it is debasing and degrading and incompatible with human dignity. It is not just another job."

You sound like you are just out of a Women Studies course.

PC mumbo-jumbo aside which model do you think is safest for people selling sex. Or do you think safety isn't the top priority?

" So, they would not suffer at all if it were declared tomorrow that all johns will be punished? "

Yes sex workers would suffer if buying sex was made illegal (more than the buyers would IMO), see my earlier posts.

"Women everywhere would rejoice that their bodies are no longer considered a commodity that's for sale, and some few prostitutes who have lots of money on their bank accounts would have to find a new job? "

In your fantasy world, sure. And unicorns will jump over rainbows.

"The idea that was are legalising using women as wank socks makes me feel ill. What a fucking message.
My response to the consultation, whilst considerably tempered for language, basically said that."

IMO I don't think swearing and using emotive language will do much for your side. I remember Melissa Farley used language like this in court regarding a proposed prostitution law and the judge actually said he was assigning less weight to her arguments because of it.

And personally if I came across horrible shit like this while reading a reply I would stop reading.

And in case you've forgotten, the idea about legalising prostitution further is in the interests of safety of sexworkers.

I don't think all prostitution is rape. That is not the basis for my objection to it.

I think it is debasing and degrading and incompatible with human dignity. It is not just another job.

I watched the Channel 4 (?) documentary on legal brothels in Germany. It was one of the most awful things I've seen. I would be ashamed if Scotland allowed that.

"If you feel so strongly about homeless Swedish prostitutes, perhaps you could finance a housing charity that gave these women a rent-free home and less financial pressure that could enable them to exit prostitution"

I wasn't the one who lobbied for the Swedish model, which includes a clause about it being illegal to allow rented accommodation to be used for selling sex.

I believe it was mostly feminists who lobbied for the law in Sweden. And what are they doing about the negative consequences they have created for vulnerable women selling sex in Sweden?

I couldn't log in so I signed up again btw don't know why it kept saying incorrect password.

"Emmawinkl - surely women in prostitution currently have the right to say no to a punter, have the right to refuse sex and have the right to refuse a booking? If not, who is denying them those rights?"

Of course they have those rights.

And prohibitionists (people advocating either the swedish model or full criminalisation) IMO are denying them the right to decide for themselves.

If you say "all prostitution is rape" then you are denying individual women the right to decide for themselves. And what worries me is that if society does adopt the attitude of "all prostitution is rape" then prostitutes who really have been raped may not be taken as seriously.

Oh and all of this ignores the fact the vast majority of women are not prostitutes and the vast majority of men aren't punters.

In the 4 Scottish cities far more people live in tenement flats than rest of UK and also live in the city centres. This is not just young, single people but all ages and families with children.

None of the pro brothel lobby seem to give a damn that these proposals would force ordinary women, men and children to live on the same stair as a brothel.

The idea that was are legalising using women as wank socks makes me feel ill. What a fucking message.

My response to the consultation, whilst considerably tempered for language, basically said that.

If anyone on here in the rest of the UK thinks this is only relevant to Scotland, please think again. Do you want mobile brothels being set up in Gretna Green with women being driven over the border?

weeonion

I totally agree with the women at the top end of the market, they will just keep on as before building their businesses.
I think it will help those who have had to rely on pimps and are at the other end of the scale.

vestal

Those who have built up reputation and business won't rejoice, why on earth would they want to stop if they are happy paying their fees like this.
Some are intelligent enough to do a boring old job if they wanted to, but clearly are happy with the conditions in which they work.

emmawinkI wrote - "A sexworker in Sweden just got a criminal record for working with another sexworker and was also made homeless? But the client she was with got a little fine"

The Swedish Model isn't perfect. For example, sanctions against punters in the Swedish Model could be made much tougher, but weak sanctions against punters are a result of lobbying by punters, pimps and madams, who place the welfare of the men who abuse prostitutes above everything except the financial income of pimps and madams.

If you feel so strongly about homeless Swedish prostitutes, perhaps you could finance a housing charity that gave these women a rent-free home and less financial pressure that could enable them to exit prostitution. I suspect, however, that you only pay disingenuous lip-service to caring about homeless prostitutes, and only in countries where the Swedish Model operates, for ammunition in your attempts to undermine the Swedish Model.

If you actually genuinely cared about homeless prostitutes, you could extend the housing charity into prostitution-friendly countries where the Swedish Model has not been adopted e.g. Germany, New Zealand and the Netherlands, which have a larger problem of homeless prostitutes than Sweden. Don't forget the huge number of homeless prostitutes in India, another place without the Swedish Model.

@NewLife4Me: So, they would not suffer at all if it were declared tomorrow that all johns will be punished?

Women everywhere would rejoice that their bodies are no longer considered a commodity that's for sale, and some few prostitutes who have lots of money on their bank accounts would have to find a new job?

Then ... let's do that!

The idea that was are legalising using women as wank socks makes me feel ill. What a fucking message.

Vestal

The ones I knew/know don't have pimps or Johns and their business comes from word of mouth.
They have built up their business, only take on recommendation and earn far more than top managers I know.
Their dc are in private schools, mortgages paid off etc.

I have known prostitutes who did so to fund a lavish lifestyle for their children. They aren't all down and out and feel like they don't have any choice

So, what would they do if pimps and johns were punished? How would this negatively impact them, other than maybe forcing them to look for a job that doesn't get them as lavish a lifestyle?
(And a lavish lifestyle is not a fundamental human right.)

Prostitution isn't rape at all, what a silly comment.
I know prostitutes can be raped the same as any other woman and the risks may even be higher, I don't know.
But consensual sex is not rape.
I have known prostitutes who did so to fund a lavish lifestyle for their children. They aren't all down and out and feel like they don't have any choice.

Prostitution is not rape. Sex workers have the right to say no just like anyone else. They have the right not to accept bookings and even if they do meet up with a client they have the right to say no to sex and they have the right to end the booking whenever they want.

That right will help them sooo much if they need to money to feed themselves ... good joke. No, actually not, its not funny.

Either women get into prostitution because it is so much fun - then banning prostitution will not mean that women become homeless or destitute - or they get into prostitution because they are poor and have no way out, in which case it IS rape.

"What's that? A sexworker in Sweden just got a criminal record for working with another sexworker and was also made homeless? But the client she was with got a little fine?? The Swedish model is a success!!! Hooray!!!"

"Being caught buying sex, on the other hand, means instant fine. "

If someone has money to buy sex, I dare say a small fine isn't going to hit them hard.

It will probably be much harder on the sexworker if she was found to be working with others, or was working from somewhere she rents.

But what is your priority? Do you really give a shit about the safety of sexworker? I can't help get the impression you just love the idea of clients getting small fines you are happy for sexworkers' safety to be put at risk.

"And your worries about "safe" clients are actually proof that you are aware prostitution is rape. "

No it's not.

Prostitution is not rape. Sex workers have the right to say no just like anyone else. They have the right not to accept bookings and even if they do meet up with a client they have the right to say no to sex and they have the right to end the booking whenever they want.

"first and foremost combat poverty."

Then why isn't Scotland doing this? Scotland has tried several times over recent years to push through criminalisation which would only make matters worse.

Instead of criminalisation (such as the swedish model) we need a model which keeps workers safe while at the same time looking at poverty.

"Yes, yes they will. "

From 1999 to 2012 (the year of the UN report) only 2 clients have been convicted in court of buying sex in Sweden? Yeah, really powerful deterrent there.

And it goes without saying prohibition is not going to be any deterrent at all to violent punters. If a punter doesn't care about the consequences of the laws against assaulting or raping someone (which can carry a prison term), do you really think they are going to care about a law against buying sex (which carries a very small fine in Sweden).

Yes, yes they will. Because the reason why they don't care about consequences when they rape, is because the woman will first have to prove the rape, which is near impossible.

Being caught buying sex, on the other hand, means instant fine.

And your worries about "safe" clients are actually proof that you are aware prostitution is rape. You acknowledge that the women have no other option.

If they could just go get a job as top manager, would they not just give up prostitution, as it is no longer a good way to make money?

Obviously any government aiming to combat prostitution must first and foremost combat poverty.

"Also HIV Scotland - hmmmm, who are they representative any more. Seems like anyone can get on their board to deliberately change policy!"

how silly